Conspiracies abound

Self | 11/12/2001 | Lawdude

[lawdude]

After reading a few hundred posts on the FR forum today I can only say, FR has turned into a "Conspiracy Theory Haven". People have been posting the most OUTLANDISH comments with absolutely nothing to support them except that a "Government Spokesman" has denied them. I guess that denial is proof in the world of the cynic who is unable to look at information and sift fact from conjecture.

I don't know what caused the crash today. I know for certain I DON'T have enough factual information to even form a reasonable opinion. (Note: the key word is REASONABLE!)

I look at known, objective information which I believe most would accept as factual and add to that pile of info as it becomes available. So far, there is absolutely no, I say again, NO, evidence that the crash was anything but malfunction. Now, a person needs fact to whittle away at that supposition. What FACTS do we have to do so?

Darn little, if any. Let's look-

1) Crashed in Rockaway. Hmmm Normal takeoff route. But one of many.
2) Rockaway is home of Mike Moran. SO?
3) Some witnesses claim to have heard an explosion...Most do not!
4) This type of airplane is crashproof. BS. Not worthy of comment.
Add others and try to RATIONALLY draw conclusions based on FACT. Not some hypothetical desire to be the one that proves it was OBL beyond a reasonable doubt. You ain't gonna be a hero, chum.

Flame away tin hatters, I can take it. But until I see some viable arguments to prove a conspiracy/terrorist influence, I will believe that a mechanical malfunction was the cause for the loss of 255 + innocent lives.

[Asmodeus]

"I have taken part in and watched the "Forum" for some time now and am saddened to see the tenor and substance of replies to so many threads sink to the level they have."

[flea69]

I suppose the engine was vibrating so much it caused the vertical stabilizer to rip loose. Sounds reasonable to me.

[185JHP]

I believe the poster was saying "this isn't a coincidence" based on all the indices, rather than that there are "never" any coincidences. There was a guy that was scheduled to be on the plane with Ron Brown, that crashed, then died on TWA 800. If you'll buy that as a "coincidence", you've got a problem. Some people like to try to debunk. Hard to debunk this as not a criminal conspiracy - but there are people on FR who've tried to say LHO fired all the shots at Dealey Plaza. Sad.

[flea69]

Not to mention the missing head x-rays of Ron Brown.

[flea69]

A long time ago I told my liberal mother some of the oddities surrounding the JFK assasination. She did not buy into anything but LHO, but several years ago she went on a date with a friend. The man she was with confided in her he used to be a secret service agent. So she began to tell him how her son had some wild ideas about our gov. including the JFK situation. He preceded to tell her that he worked in the JFK admin. and He as well as the rest of his coworkers were replaced the day before JFK's trip to Dallas. The only agent that was requested to remain was Jackie's. My mom called me the next day and appollogized

[185JHP]

The Secret Service stuff is the most solid proof of the conspiracy: reducing the number of agents, reducing the number of motorcycles, positioning of the motorcycles, last minute changing of the route, the slowing down of the limo AFTER the first shots were fired, it's too much. But, there are still the debunkers.

[walden]

Yeah, I've seen a lot of stupid stuff on this forum too, and I don't go along with it, but I think the truth is that the government simply doesn't know, and they aren't simply willing to state that, and leave it at that. They're trying to reassure people, to get them not to panic, and the more they try to reassure me, the more angry it makes me. I WATCHED Ari Fleischer yesterday-- he was almost AVUNCULAR. I just wish they would stop sending politicians out to talk to us, and send the engineers instead.

Interestingly, neither of you dealt with the logical aspects of my argument. Unarguable, isn't it? Exactly what sorts of assumptions should we start with, in this world, or should we start with ANY assumptions? (BTW, if Ari or anyone else had evidence of mechanical failure, they certainly didn't present it.) It also bothers me that I haven't read anywhere which parts of the plane fell where, and they surely know that by now. So, why the wait? It doesn't require them to draw conclusions-- just to present data. So why don't they? Well, they don't want to WORRY people, to fuel SPECULATION.

Look, I think the Bush people will tell us the truth-- eventually. But I do think they are trying to manage the timing of the process and the message, and I think the American people deserve the straight truth, whatever that is, with no spin. When they know a fact, they should say so. When they don't know, they should likewise say so.

When I stop to think more carefully about WHY they might be managing the message, it pretty clearly looks like a psychological game to me. Why were the attacks of 9/11 so devastating? Because there was no separation time between the impact of the effect and the realization of the cause. On the other hand, had there been any doubt, if it could have been possible that some natural cause, or some mechanical problem happened, the impact on America's psyche would have been muted. With approval ratings for the war running 90%, the only possible impact of more terrorist attacks is purely negative-- for the economy, for public perception of government effectiveness, in every way. So, if the government can leave everyone with an initial impression of "probably an accident", and drag out the investigation for a few months or even weeks, it's a win for them. In fact, in that case, a good portion of the American public will never have a clear idea what caused the crash.

[a6intruder]

I can't believe you guys are having a shill & huggers convention and I wasn't invited!

[mlo]

Interestingly, neither of you dealt with the logical aspects of my argument.

Excuse me, but I think I did. You have false assumptions.

Let me quote from a Washington Post article this moring:

"Authorities said early signs pointed to an accident, basing their assessment partly on communications heard on the cockpit voice recorder. But they did not rule out sabotage or other causes."

"We're not going to exclude that possibility until the investigation goes much further than this," George Black, a member of the National Transportation Safety Board, said Tuesday on NBC's "Today" show."

[mlo]

The Secret Service stuff is the most solid proof of the conspiracy: reducing the number of agents, reducing the number of motorcycles, positioning of the motorcycles, last minute changing of the route, the slowing down of the limo AFTER the first shots were fired, it's too much. But, there are still the debunkers.

And most of those things didn't happen. There are a lot of things people have heard that are just not true. They are out there because so many books have been written with so many claims that have gotten the facts wrong, or made them up.

The route wasn't changed for example. Everyone thinks it was now, but that just isn't true. The route published in the papers before the trip was the one taken.

[Leesylvanian]

The Buildaburgers are the ones to watch...soon they will have every fast food franchise sown up, and there will be no chicken or Mexican fast food available. Its no coincidence that KFC and Taco Bell are allied at this stage. They're the only two hold outs left against the Buildaburgers. Its all the Bush's fault. They sold us out to the burgerglobalists...aghghghgh! My tin foil is too tight...the black burgercopters are landing to get me...

[american spirit]

Fine, it'll be an good example of addition by subtraction.

[anniegetyourgun]

Careful now....americanspirit will come by and rip your face off!

[flea69]

Are you familiar with or capable of deductive reasoning? If so then more than likely you are completely uninformed on the issue of JFK, a government stooge, or just joshing. Your use of comical theories will not erase the facts. If you are not familiar with deductive reasoning then look at the facts and you tell me which one fits: LHO theory or something more complex. Better (honest) minds than yours or mine have done just that and they discount LHO. Now I will let you have the floor to (let me guess) attack me or continue to invent farsical theories.

[katze]

Belated invitation to you, fellow shill. ;-)

[Leesylvanian]

Damn, you must be one of them. Sit tight, I'll send the Reynolds Wrap...

[Leesylvanian]

Let him try...I've got my tinfoil force field ready!!

[anniegetyourgun]

I need to get me one of those!

[Leesylvanian]

Yup...they've come in handy 'round these parts recently. Is Fred Mertz okay? Americanspirit didn't get him did he? I've missed Mr. Mertz' sly reasoning on these kinds of threads.

[KneelBeforeZod]

Area 51. We're through the looking glass here people.

(paging oliver stone)