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To: jennyp
Sorry for the delays, caught up in other discussions (really need to keep one window on every thread I get mixed up in). Depending on where you are (both physically and temporally, it changes a lot during the seasons and because it's been getting used as a sea way man kind was mucked with it) the Red Sea can actually be pretty narrow (like able to shout a conversation across it narrow).

On the other side you have to also consider the difference between a good epic story and what probably happened. Remember there are no records of mass Jewish enslavement in that time in Egypt. Now there were Jews in the area and there were slaves in Egypt so there's a good chance some Jews were slaves, but it probably wasn't the tens thousands of Jews like we see in the movie, for one things how to tens of thousands of people on foot stay ahead of a chariot using army, not gonna happen. You have to remember scale on a lot of levels, to people living in the relatively small villages that were prevalent at the time the number of people we fit into an NBA arena (20,000 +/-) would be staggering you're talking at least 20 entire villages worth of people in one place (or one smallish city). They didn't have New York or LA, "a lot" of people to them were less than than it is to us (thus why Rome blew a lot of minds, because that was very close to an American sized city, far beyond the scale of anything they'd ever seen).

So what you're probably talking is around 1,000 people running like hell, getting to the Suez Canal (which wasn't very deep through much of history), wondering if now was a good time to learn to swim, then the water rolls back, they run some more. The horses and chariots probably get bogged in the mud (you get really gooky mud in areas that never get dry, but humans can deal with it better than horses, we're lighter and can crawl), the people keep running, get a sand dune or two between them, then the wave hits, of course most of the wave has been spent going through the Gulf of Suez (shallow water marks the end of a tidal wave, after that it's just riding momentum) so it doesn't go very wide (otherwise the Jews get nailed too), and wave bye bye to Pharoahs army.

Or the whole thing doesn't synch up at all. Maybe Moses frees some slaves, there's so few of them the Pharoah doesn't care, but then something makes him decide to chase them down a couple years later, get's to Suez right as the out suck hits decides HIS gods were helping so he ignores the boats gets stuck and drowns when the water comes back.

Or a couple of completely unrelated stories got jelled in together. We are finding more and more archeological evidence of key events in the Bible, which makes sense you don't right about the destruction of cities that never existed and expect people to worship your book (unless your name is L Ron Hubbard, but I digress). What's still lacking is distinct chains of events like the Bible, the Bible talks about A led to B led to C and we keep finding B, but A and C are no where to be found (like here no record of mass Jewish enslavement, no record of something like Exodus, but plenty of record of volcanic action that could have caused much of the stuff that happened to the Pharoah).

This stuff is generally written as recollection, often probably after being passed down through oral history for a bit. 1 or 2 years here or there can get jumbled pretty easy, events that happened seperately a few years later might be recalled as intimately related (especially if you have the generally boring life of a subsistance farmer in Biblical times). An example so you can understand: Which came first: Phil Collins Face Values album featuring the smash hit "In the Air Tonight" or the first episode of Miami Vice that brought the song to prominence? Follow up was that Phil's first solo album? Of course the answer is Face Values preceeded Miami Vice by almost 2 years, but had very luke warm sales, and no it was his second solo album (for the life of me I can't remember the title of his first, which tells you a lot about it, I used to be a huge Phil Collins fan, then I discovered women and stopped acting so gay). But unless you were a fan of Phil's (there is a recovery program) you probably didn't know that, even if you lived through the time.

OK, enough of this. Started talking about the Bible and now it's on low rent halfassed 80's drummer that never should have strayed from their bands. Time to go. Have fun.

38 posted on 11/08/2001 2:20:53 PM PST by discostu
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To: discostu
What's still lacking is distinct chains of events like the Bible, the Bible talks about A led to B led to C and we keep finding B, but A and C are no where to be found (like here no record of mass Jewish enslavement, no record of something like Exodus, but plenty of record of volcanic action that could have caused much of the stuff that happened to the Pharoah). Actually, there is circumstantial evidence to support the Exodus, for those who are looking. Much of ancient (read; Biblical) history is dated using the historical, dynastic records kept by Egypt. This proves problematic, however, because a) those records are interpreted as being of successive dynasties, rather than overlapping/parallel ones, and b) the Egyptians did not believe in linear time.

One circumstantial example for the Exodus can be found in the June/July 1983 issue of the journal Biblical Archaeology Today, which reports on evidence of a people (here called "MBIs" whose "migratory drift...bears a striking similarity to that of Israel's flight from Egypt to the Promised Land, as recorded in the Book of Exodus" (Rudolph Cohen, "The Mysterious MBI People", page 16). Cohen does not believe these "MBIs" are the children of Israel because of the dating of the archaeological remains, using the existing Egyptian chronological calendar.

While I don't buy into Velikovsky's explanations of events, I do lend credence to his criticisms and reconstructions of historical timetables. Another "amateur" (meaning he's not employed by a State-funded university) historian, Donovan Courville, has also produced a revision of the Egyptian chronology. Both believe that the chronology of the ancient world, as based on the Egyptian dynastic records, needs to be shortened by as much as 700 years. A more recent article, at http://www.biblicalchronologist.org/features/exodus.htm, purports that the Biblical chronologies need to be changed (i.e. moved back) by 1,000 years. By doing so, Dr. Aardsma states "..as one begins to examine the archaeology at the new dates, the harmony between Biblical and secular accounts is overwhelming..." Note that the issue isn't the "evidence", it's the timetable applied to it. Aardsma believes in the existing (secular) Egyptian timetable more than the Biblical record; Courville believes the opposite. Either way, both authors find a definite correlation between the circumstantial archaological evidence and the Biblical accounts.

Besides, the Egyptian pharoahs were famous for wiping out whole histories of their ancestors, to the extent of changing their monuments, when it suited them. Akhenaton alone shows us this. It all comes down to what we bring, a prioi, into these arguments. Who would we believe - Moses or Pharoah?

39 posted on 11/09/2001 12:51:25 PM PST by Alex Murphy
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