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To: John O
Since you seem to enjoy quoting Matthew, and since I don’t want you to think I’m taking isolated verses out of context as you have, let’s now look at the philosophical points in the entire book of Matthew and you can determine which political views most closely approximate this Gospel (feel free to compare it with the other Gospels; the Message is pretty similar).

The first three chapters cover His birth. Then in Ch. 4:19-20, He addresses Peter and Andrew: "’Come! Follow me and I will make you fishers of men.’ And at once they abandoned their nets and followed Him." They left their gainful employment and took on a type of work which generates no wages: evangelizing. Are these the type of people who you would let "starve" according to your previous post? They produced no income, yet Paul said in II Thessalonians that they were "entitled to support." Would conservatives agree? Liberals would.

In Ch 5, Jesus delivers the beatitudes. "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." Does that square well with the conservative view of Capitalism? Or how about v. 7: "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy." Or v. 9: "Blessed are the peacemakers," which was my point when this enormous thread began, for which I was castigated and branded a liar. Let’s continue with v. 38-39: "You have heard it was said (Ex 21:24), ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, ‘Do not resist injuries, but whoever strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other as well." Is that the "new anti-American Standard version" you referred to, John, or is it the words of your Lord and Savior?

You’ll love v. 40 and 42: "And if anyone asks you for your tunic, let him have you robe as well." And "Give to the one who begs from you and do not refuse the borrower." Nothing about letting lazy people starve. Nothing about welfare cheats. Do you know why? Because of v. 7:1: "Do not pass judgment, that you may not be judged." In other words, it doesn’t matter whether you think they deserve it or not. God commands you to give. Period. It’s up to Him to judge the hearts of the beggars and the character of people on public assistance. The conservative wails, "but I believe in private charity, not public assistance." The Christian Liberal responds, "we need both." I’m honest enough to know that 99% are not willing to give up everything and devote our lives to preaching and helping the less fortunate. So I give to give some of what’s left over from my huge, self-employment income tax bill to charities and vote for the government to use some of those taxes for the needy. Because what we do on our own is not enough, and due to our selfish natures, it probably wouldn’t be enough even if we paid no taxes. I want public AND private money going to those who need it. Because Christ commanded it.

Now back to ch 6, v. 19 and v. 24: "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth" and "You cannot serve God and mammon." V. 25 continues, "Do not worry about your living – what you are to eat or drink…" Right wing capitalism?

Ch 7 is about spiritual health, 8 covers various healings. Then comes 9:13: "I want mercy and not sacrifice." In Ch 10:9-10, he instructs his disciples: :"Provide neither gold, nor silver , nor copper to put your belts, nor a bag for the journey; neither two coasts, nor sandals, nor staff. for the worker deserves his support." Back to what Paul said. And where does that support come from? From us. A bit socialistic for our society, isn’t it?

Ch. 11 gives Jesus’ reaction to John the Baptist. In Ch. 12, He is criticized by the Pharisees for breaking the Sabbath. I said in earlier post that Jesus declared Himself to be the Law. You responded with, This must be from the new anti-American Standard version of the bible. I can't find it in any of the 12 or so versions I have at my fingertips. Jesus here answers by declaring that He can break the Sabbath and be blameless and concludes in v. 8 with: "For the Son of Man is the Lord of the Sabbath."

In ch. 13, there’s a verse you may want to misuse, so let me save you some time. He says in v. 12: "For whoever has will receive will receive superabundantly, but whoever has not will be deprived of whatever he has." He explains this verse in 18-23. As before, he is referring to the "message of the kingdom" and not to wealth. "One who listens and understands the message; he bears fruit and yields…"

Ch 14: WILLINGLY SHARE WHAT YOU HAVE; v. 16, five loaves two fish, everyone shared, a miracle occurred. Are my conservative friends on the same page?

Ch 15 – More from the Pharisees, definitely law-and-order types, attacking Him for violating Old Testament Law. Then seven loaves, a few fish, "He ordered the masses to sit," more sharing, another miracle.

Ch 16 – The end is coming (really the beginning). Another economic message, in v. 26: "For what advantage will a man have if he acquires the whole world and forfeits his own life?"

Ch 17 – v. 27: Jesus instructs Peter to pay the local tax. I won’t comment; that one is too easy.

Ch 18 – TAKE PITY ON THOSE WHO WRONG YOU AND FORGIVE THEM. Conservative or Liberal? Jesus point out that He forgives us for an enormous debt (our sin), therefore each must (v. 35) "heartily forgive his brother."

Ch 19 – Here’s where Right Wing Capitalism really diverges from the Word. V. 20-22: "The young man said to him…’How do I still fall behind?’ Jesus replied, ‘If you want to be complete, go and sell what you have and donate it to the needy, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come and follow Me.’ But the young man, on hearing that, went sadly away, for he had much property." Earlier, John, you discounted this verse by stating that Jesus said this to only one person. Wrong. In the next two verses, he makes the thought universal: "I assure you, it will be difficult for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven. I SAY TO YOU AGAIN, IT IS EASIER FOR A CAMEL TO PASS THROUGH A NEEDLE’S EYE THAN FOR A WEALTHY PERSON TO ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN." That includes Joseph of Arimathea, and every Democrat or Republican, and you and I. Like us, the disciples are "dumbfounded," and ask, "Who then can be saved?" Jesus answers, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." For Christians who like to brag about being part of the wealthiest country on earth, it’s time to sit down, shut up and thank God for saving us despite our focus on wealth.

Ch 20 – Already covered. The estate owner clearly as a metaphor for the kingdom of heaven, not for property relations.

Ch 21 – V.12 – "Jesus entered the temple and expelled all who were buying and selling in its courts….and told them, ‘It is written, my house shall be called a house of prayer…’"

Ch 22 – V. 21 – "Pay Caesar what is due to Caesar, and God what is due to God." Of course, to be fair to the Right, He didn’t say we couldn’t whine before we paid. And in 37-40, Jesus takes precedence over Old Testament Law: "You shall love the Lord your God with your whole soul, and with your whole mind. This is the great and chief commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS THE WHOLE LAW AND PROPHETS DEPEND."

Ch 23 – How should these verses properly infuse our politics? V.4 – "They (the wealthy Pharisees) tie up heavy loads and place them on the people’s shoulders, but they themselves do not care to move them with their finger." V. 12 –"Whoever elevates himself shall be humbled, and whoever humbles himself shall be elevated." V.14 – "you cheat the widows out of their houses. For this you will receive greater judgment." V. 23 – "Alas for you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you tithe mint, dill and cummin, and YOU OMIT THE WEIGHTIER ASPECTS OF THE LAW – JUSTICE, MERCY AND FAITH."

Ch 24 – The End Times.

Ch 25 – The story of the master who entrusted 10 talents to one servant, 4 to another and 2 to a third, and then went away to see what the servants would do with the talents. This, I believe is a warning to our nation, for no nation in history, with the possible exception of Rome, has been given more blessings, more talents, than America. And we must, therefore, hold ourselves to higher standard of behavior, but God will expect more of us. Then comes a stark warning to us as individuals in v.41 – "Then will He say to tho0se at His left, ‘Begone from Me, accursed ones… for I was hungry and you did not feed Me; thirsty and you gave me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not entertain Me; naked and you failed to clothe me; ill in prison and you did not come to see Me.’" They ask God when they saw Him in those circumstances. He answers, in V. 45 – "Insofar as you failed to do it to one of the least of these (brothers of Mine), you failed to do it to Me. " Be careful who you allow to starve, John. For a down-and-out person, you may be the only face of Christ they see today. Or you may be saying no to the face of Jesus when you sneer at a "lazy" beggar, or vote to cut a Federal school lunch program for a hungry child.

Ch 26 – In revenge for capturing Jesus, a companion cuts off the ear of the slave of the High Priest. Jesus admonishes (v. 52), "Return your sword to it’s place, for all who draw the sword shall be destroyed by the sword." Pretty clear.

Ch 27 – Death.

Ch 28 – Resurrection.

Jesus was a conservative? Not hardly. The verses I did not discuss were politically neutral, but if you disagree, feel free to examine them. Or try looking at another Gospel. Where is the weight of the evidence?

There are other issues not discussed, obviously, such as abortion. I personally disagree for the most part with my Liberal brethren on that issue, for spiritual reasons. But where is the weight of the evidence? For me, the answer is clear; you may reach a different conclusion, but you and I must both be sure that we are making our politics subject to our faith, and not the other way around.

Jesus is willing to save even us diehard Left or Right Wing types. Not because we’re on the correct political path, but because His grace is sufficient to overcome our hopefully well-intentioned political mistakes.

190 posted on 12/23/2001 5:03:47 PM PST by ReasonedVoice
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To: ReasonedVoice
Most of your post while it would make an interesting discussion is a bit far afield of the topic. We need to discuss this elsewhere. Find where it fits and page me.

I do have to address the following though:

The conservative wails, "but I believe in private charity, not public assistance." The Christian Liberal responds, "we need both." I’m honest enough to know that 99% are not willing to give up everything and devote our lives to preaching and helping the less fortunate. So I give to give some of what’s left over from my huge, self-employment income tax bill to charities and vote for the government to use some of those taxes for the needy. Because what we do on our own is not enough, and due to our selfish natures, it probably wouldn’t be enough even if we paid no taxes. I want public AND private money going to those who need it.

First there is NO public money. (why don't liberals ever understand this?) There is only private money stolen by illegal taxes for unathorized programs. (If it's not authorized in the constitution it's illegal)

Secondly, before the income tax, when all charities were private, we had enough to go around and people gave enough to support those who couldn't work. Life was good in this country because we cared for each other. Even with our selfish natures we took care of everyone who couldn't take care of themselves.

God Save America (Please)

196 posted on 12/26/2001 8:06:39 AM PST by John O
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