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12 U.S. DELTA MEMBERS WOUNDED ON RAID OF OMAR
Drudge ^ | 11/3/01

Posted on 11/03/2001 6:04:22 AM PST by Diogenesis

MAG: 12 U.S. DELTA MEMBERS WOUNDED ON RAID OF OMAR'S COMPLEX, THREE SERIOUSLY; PENTAGON RETHINKS 'SPECIAL FORCES OPERATIONS'

Seymour Hersh has filed yet another controversial report for coming editons of the NEW YORKER, publishing sources tell the DRUDGE REPORT.

In ESCAPE AND EVASION, Hersh claims: In the wake of a near-disaster during the assault on Mullah Omar's complex during the early morning of October 20th, the Pentagon has been rethinking future Special Forces operations inside Afghanistan.

Delta Force, which prides itself on stealth, had been counterattacked by the Taliban, and some of the Americans had had to fight their way to safety. Hersh has filed his report for the November 12, 2001 issue of the NEW YORKER, on sale Monday.

Twelve Delta members were wounded, three of them seriously.

The intensity and ferocity of the Taliban response "scared the crap out of everyone," a senior military officer tells Hersh.

The Delta team stormed Mullah Omar's complex, but found little of value, Hersh reports, and then, "as they came out of the house, the shit hit the fan," one senior officer says. "It was like an ambush. The Taliban were fighting with light arms and either [rocket-propelled grenades] or mortars." The team immediately began taking casualties and evacuated.

"The Delta team was forced to abandon one of its objectives: the insertion of an undercover team into the area and the stay-behind soldiers fled to a previously determined rendezvous point, using a contingency plan known as an E. & E., for escape and evasion," Hersh writes.


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To: Zordas
You have not provided ANY evidence that Rumsfeld supports the article, as you claimed. The only statement that comes close, is the false statement from the Telegraph: "The public admissions by Donald Rumsfeld, the US Secretary of State for Defence, and US Navy Rear Admiral John Stufflebeem that they were surprised by the toughness of the Taliban gives a glimpse of how badly things could have gone wrong."

Stufflebeem expressed "surprise"; Rumsfeld did not. And Stufflebeem clarified his widely-quoted statement on October 30, according to my notes at the time during his live press conference: "Stufflebeem explained he was simply looking at the Taliban's situation from an American perspective: He knows the inevitability of their defeat, and was surprised that they did not yet realize that inevitability. But they will eventually."

You have yet to back up your claim that Rumsfeld supports the Seymour Hersh article. As I said, you are full of crap.

201 posted on 11/03/2001 11:59:10 AM PST by M. Thatcher
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Comment #202 Removed by Moderator

To: mrsmith
By high level I mean Cabinet level and the immediate level below. His sources here were no doubt one-two stars, deputy assistant secretaries, or lower etc. Or maybe that Wolfowitz character.
203 posted on 11/03/2001 12:00:14 PM PST by Kenyon
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To: AndyJackson
I gotta say your concerns are misplaced.

I hope you are right.

204 posted on 11/03/2001 12:00:19 PM PST by JD86
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To: Tauzero
And if the Clintonized military is as bad as I think it is, reports like Hersh's might sadly be the best way to get accurate reports from those at the sharp end of things to those at the top.

To those at the very top like Bush or Rumsfeld who must be tearing their hair out in frustration trying to get a straight story on anything filtered through 23 layers of Pentagon bureaucracy. If it is wrong, I see little harm in it. The article will be used as a cover for dart boards in military messes around the world. If it is right - it will save lives and he will be a hero among the JO's and noncoms.

205 posted on 11/03/2001 12:05:36 PM PST by AndyJackson
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To: Professor Jim
He truly is an investigative reporter who manages to obtain the trust of many mid-level military and CIA people.

The problem with him is that when he screws up - its big news and that's all that people remember. I generally beieve what he writes - but it has to be read critically.

206 posted on 11/03/2001 12:07:42 PM PST by Kenyon
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Comment #207 Removed by Moderator

To: M. Thatcher
I must say that I find Stufflebeem's first comment to sound as if it has a grain of truth in it - his second comment on the same topic sounds as if he has been both taken out to the wood shed and re-programmed with the appropropiate spin.
208 posted on 11/03/2001 12:16:13 PM PST by Kenyon
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To: Zordas
Okay, history is all wrong because you don't approve. I forgot to mention, "Television" is also known as "TV." Now, go away, you're bothering me.

Now that makes a lot of sense. I'm all wrong because you don't approve. You have given NO evidence of your assertion. I've proven mine. Now go away, you're bothering those of us who are interested in the truth.

209 posted on 11/03/2001 12:16:15 PM PST by M. Thatcher
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To: Kenyon
I must say that I find Stufflebeem's first comment to sound as if it has a grain of truth in it - his second comment on the same topic sounds as if he has been both taken out to the wood shed and re-programmed with the appropropiate spin.

That may well be. I await further evidence. Hersh (and his lapdog, Mr. Z) have failed to provide it.

210 posted on 11/03/2001 12:20:03 PM PST by M. Thatcher
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To: Diogenesis
I posted this on another similar thread, take it for what it's worth:

A few posters so far have one thing pegged for sure- I find it difficult to believe that the reporter actually talked to a Delta Force member. I was 8 years US Army Infantry. I'm here to tell you- almost nothing is known about Delta Force. I would expect the knowledge level about Spec Ops to be higher in the Army than in the civilian life (or "the world/real world" as it's refered to). Long time soldiers don't even know anything about Delta- and I mean nothing. So it is very difficult to believe that someone outside of that world could know anything about what Delta Force is about, has done or is about to do.

I would like to put this into context. As an Infantryman who has deployed more than once, I can tell you, we were given classes on the media, reporters and how to react to an interview. The Army (in contrast to the Air Force and Navy) is deeply suspicious and wary of the media. Before I was sent to Bosnia we were explicitly trained in what we could, could not and what we were "expected" to say to the media. Any reporter would be accompanied by a liason officer who would know when to shut up a dumb private if he said the wrong thing- that's a fact. In addition, think about this:

You have to have a security clearance before you can be Delta Force. If the ordinary Joe (with no security clearance) can't talk to the media, do I really think that someone who is the elite of the "secret society" would blab to a reporter who exposed one of the Army's uglier skeletons?

I also want to shed some more light on something from a former Infantryman's perspective. This regards the public conception of "Special Forces" and how the media reports on them. When you hear the terms "Ranger", "Special Forces" and "Delta Force" you are hearing about three distinctly different animals.

To start with, Rangers (at the risk of upsetting any Rangers out there) are NOT Special Forces. These two "tabs" are the most highly respected in the Army and it is the rare soldier who has them both. If you are Special Forces you wear that tab and you know who you are. If you are a Ranger, you wear THAT tab and you know who you are. Also, there's a difference between "wearing the tab" and "being in a Ranger Bat (battalion)". If you made it through the "school" you are a Ranger and wear a Ranger "tab". Soldiers with a Ranger tab are HIGHLY respected in the Army by their fellow soldiers. They are "special" and the first thing one soldier does when he meets a new soldier is to check out his uniform. He scans the left breast and shoulder for "badges and tabs". Airborne, Air Assault, EIB, CIB,Ranger, Special Forces- and the very rare "Pathfinder" and "Scuba".

But any Infantryman makes a distinction between someone with a Ranger tab and a Ranger who was in a Ranger Bat. This is much the same as the epiphany a soldier has when he realizes he really became a soldier "downrange" or in in the "real Army" and not in Basic Training. That's where you really learn your job and how to do things. The same for a Ranger. Someone in a "bat" trains with Ranger tactics a great deal of the time where as the more mundane Infantryman spends a great deal of time maintaining equipment and doing sh*t work. It's all about funds. Rangers are better soldiers physically and mentally and they rightly get more funding. But Rangers are still Infantry and they still fight in Infantry sized compliments (platoon, company, battalion).

Special Forces go through the "Q" course and wear the famous "green beret". They are very smart soldiers who have displayed a very good ability at working as part of a team (in addition to their physical prowess). To go through the "Q" course a soldier first has to make it through SFAS (SF assessment). This drops most candidates (including Tim McVeigh). SF is no f*cking joke. An SF medic is basically trained to do surgery and his is the hardest training of all at approx. 12 months. There are four job specialties (weapons, commo, medic and engineer) An 18B (SF Weapons Spc) is the LOWEST job specialty and if you are a former mortar man (like me :-) you have already sussed a full 50% of 18B training which is mortar related (you gotta be a genius to be a mortar ;-)

But Delta? Nobody knows what those guys are up to, including this reporter. A couple of points ring true in his article. One- Pathfinders were the first in for the Ranger mission. Yes, that's what Pathfinders do. This doesn't make them more "special". They have a short school that teaches them all about indentifying and securing drop zones for Air Assault/Airborne missions. They can do "cool stuff" like build an air assault platform in the tops of trees for jungle Air Assault missions. There is a lot of inter-service rivalry and I could imagine some Pathfinders being POed about the Rangers taking "first in" honors.

The next is- I read this article to refer to two different missions (but perhaps related). This would account for a lot of the confusion about the Rangers getting beat up in their raid although they had video showing a "low stress" operation (please don't take me wrong on low stress). If one thinks on the Ranger drop as being a distraction and cover for the Delta mission- it makes sense.

But bottom line- I can't imagine the reporter got his info directly from Delta. Maybe third or fourth hand with some truth behind it but not directly.

211 posted on 11/03/2001 12:20:33 PM PST by Prodigal Son
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Comment #212 Removed by Moderator

To: Zordas
The Pentagon said last night that two American soldiers were killed and three injured when a Black Hawk helicopter crashed during the raids. In addition, two paratroopers were injured on landing.

Sorry. My problem is that I can actually read. The statement that you bolded is not in question. However, it does not in any way relate to your assertion that Rumsfeld supports the Hersh article.

213 posted on 11/03/2001 12:25:41 PM PST by M. Thatcher
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To: Leisler
Bump to you.

Exactly right.

214 posted on 11/03/2001 12:26:58 PM PST by Madame Dufarge
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To: Leisler
All people feel fear, it is a natural defense mechanism. The difference between a hero and a coward is how one reacts to that fear. The coward runs and hides. The hero does his best to put an end to what is causing the fear.

I have to say, knowing your background as I do, that your take on the raid probably is closer to truth than Hersh's.

215 posted on 11/03/2001 12:31:00 PM PST by metesky
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Comment #216 Removed by Moderator

To: Zordas
Notice that the Pentagon originally admittted the troops were killed in the Afghan raid. I'd say they had the facts, less the convenient later re-write of history.

Nope again. That is the Telegraph writer. That the two were killed "in the Afghan raid" is broadly true. It was part of the same operation. But you clearly weren't watching television at the time, or TV, because the Pentagon was quite clear this happened in Pakistan. This STILL has nothing to do with your assertion that Rumsfeld supported the Hersh piece.

217 posted on 11/03/2001 12:41:47 PM PST by M. Thatcher
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To: Zordas
Whatever you say. TV, get it, TV. Shall I spell it for you???

Oh, that's convincing. If your contention is that Rumsfeld supported the Hersh piece "on TV," you haven't provided any evidence. As I have said, everything Rumsfeld says — yes, on TV, too — is immediately put on the DOD website. I gave you the url. C'mon. Post your backup.

218 posted on 11/03/2001 12:44:37 PM PST by M. Thatcher
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To: M. Thatcher
Let's see U.S. 12 WIA ,Taliban 25 KIA yeah I'd say the U.S. lost that one, yeah right.Also, a lot more Intell was probably gained than is obvious to the reporter.
219 posted on 11/03/2001 12:50:40 PM PST by lawdog
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To: lawdog
Yes, and don't forget the article posted recently revealing the secret ops going on on the other side of the country during this visible raid.
220 posted on 11/03/2001 12:52:35 PM PST by M. Thatcher
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