Posted on 10/22/2001 3:00:31 AM PDT by solmar_israel
I just wanted some of your thoughts regarding an opinion of mine on the Pollard mess. Here are a few points to consider.
1. Pollard struck a plea bargain with the prosecution and thus cooperated fully. At the last moment, they changed the deal right before sentencing. This is legally questionable and morally reprehensible. It projects poorly on the American judicial system.
2. No one here seems to be confronting two basic facts:
A. America continuously spies on Israel, as Israel does on America. It is part of the "game".
B. America was bound by agreements with Israel (prior to the beginning of the Gulf War) to turn over to Israel information it had regarding the targeting of Israeli cities by Saddam. This was in return for Israels waiver of its most basic right of self-defense. America cheated one of its most loyal allies and didn't turn over much of the information. Most of what Pollard stole was information that America had 'pledged' to provide Israel but did not due to political considerations. Pollard himself stated that it was this very fact that motivated him to do what he did.
3. Other spies who stole more sensitive information for Communist countries who were not allies but enemies, got shorter sentences.
4. And as a last note, in regards to Israel passing this information to China, I don't believe there has been any proof of that statement. Also, keep in mind that China's biggest arms supplier is the United States (thanks to Klintoon) and that America arms the most horrible dictatorships in the Middle East which have a very good probability of ending up in a war with Israel using their American weapons.
5. Allies spy on eachother. This is how international relations work. This is what America does. When one messes up, you settle it behind the scenes and squeeze concessions, like has always been done in the past. You do this because you know you do the same and in the end you have respect for your allies. Regarding Pollard I believe, America went over the top with that one.
By the way, I am an American and an Israeli, and I love and believe in both countries with all my heart. I would not hesitate for a second to give my life for either country in a second because I believe they both represent everything good in this world. And these days, good seems to be hard to come by...
If they are caught spying, they should be SHOT, agreed??
Everybody knows that everybody spies on everybody else as much as they can get away with. But prosecuting those who are caught to the fullest extent of the law is also part of the "game". You neglected to mention that part of the game.
People (strange how it is only Israelis or Jewish Americans) who think Pollard has been treated unfairly are just going to have to get over it. Pollard will die in a U.S. Federal prison and there's not a thing that anybody can do that will change that fact. The sun will rise in the east tomorrow, and Pollard will die in a U.S. prison.
Pollard was a spy, no more and no less. For you to say that Pollard's case is simply a matter of someone turning information over to Israel that it had been promised is simplistic and naieve because, in fact, we don't know all of what Pollard gave to Israel or where that information went once Israel got it. Pollard turned over information that our country thought was in our best interest to deny Israel. He, therefore, acted against the best interests of the United States and for the interests of a foreign power. He deserves to pay for his crime.
I mean, no one's SEEN him that I know of since they put him in the jug...and he DID serve Israel's interests.
Especially the sections on spying. This section calls for the DEATH PENALTY in cases like these. Pollard worked for the Govt. and he should have known better.
You(meaning Pollard) is either with us or against us.
Regarding Clinton He should be tried for treason by our Govt. and executed like Pollard, for the Technology he gave or allowed to be given to China.
The 'fact' is irrelevent to Pollard's case. (But you have yet to provide the evidence or more importantly, a copy of the text of the alleged 'promise,' so it is hardly a 'fact.')
Here is why it is irrelevent: Pollard was not in a position to determine what the US was and was not obligated to do for Israel. Nor was he in a position to know how the information he sold was going to be used, or to whom it would be sold. Since he was not in a position to know any of these things, nor in a position of authority where he was empowered to make decisions on use of that information, he had no business appointing himself to be 'judge and jury.'
The next point is this: Pollard was a US citizen. If he holds a loyalty to Israel, he shouldn't have worked for the US or accepted a position in which his loyalties would be in conflict. He should have left the US and taken up residency in Israel, where he could in good faith swear loyalty to Israel.
But he didn't. He signed a contract and swore an oath in order to get his job with the USN. That oath was NOT to 'protect and serve Israel.'
Oaths are serious things- they are to be not to be broken. They don't have escape clauses; you are basically staking your entire being, your 'sacred honor,' to a cause by taking an oath before God. To preserve the sanctity of oaths, oath-breaking must be treated with utmost severity. Violating an oath is a voluntary act, as is taking an oath; there is never an excuse for those who break an oath.
Aside from the obvious immorality of betraying a free and trusting country, a country he had the choice of leaving, for the sake of another, and lying all along about where his loyalties were invested- the idea that he was doing something 'morally right' for the sake of a 'betrayed' Israel is totally ridiculous since he was paid (or bribed) to do it. He accepted money for the information he sold. If it was a great moral dilemma, he would have avoided accepting payment so as to keep what little integrity he had.
Some of the information Pollard sold to Israel had NOTHING to do with protecting Israel; some was the position of US ships. He may as well have threatened to murder every American on those ships, because he was certainly putting them in a position to be killed. He sold information on which USSR locations were our targets; he compromised US agents, endangering their lives. What he had was information that could be resold to any other nation and certainly used against us. His recourse if he really was in moral crisis was to look to law for a solution to his dilemma, or to quit as a matter of conscience if he could no longer work in good faith for the US.
Pollard willfully betrayed every sailor, soldier, and citizen of this country, put our security up for sale, and our lives as well. He did so knowing what he was doing, knowing the penalties for doing so, and has no reason to expect us to give him quarter. He recieved a light sentence. He should have been taken out and shot.
This is your arse talking. He didn’t cooperate fully and DOD said nuts.
2. No one here seems to be confronting two basic facts:
A. America continuously spies on Israel, as Israel does on America. It is part of the "game".
Teacher, teacher, Betty pulled my nose ring.
B. America was bound by agreements with Israel (prior to the beginning of the Gulf War) to turn over to Israel information it had regarding the targeting of Israeli cities by Saddam. This was in return for Israels waiver of its most basic right of self-defense. America cheated one of its most loyal allies and didn't turn over much of the information. Most of what Pollard stole was information that America had 'pledged' to provide Israel but did not due to political considerations. Pollard himself stated that it was this very fact that motivated him to do what he did.
Not only is your timeline false, you are lying about his motives…he did it for money.
3. Other spies who stole more sensitive information for Communist countries who were not allies but enemies, got shorter sentences.
Name them.
4. And as a last note, in regards to Israel passing this information to China, I don't believe there has been any proof of that statement.
Who made that statement? You?
Also, keep in mind that China's biggest arms supplier is the United States (thanks to Klintoon)
You’re somewhat short on details here, boy.
and that America arms the most horrible dictatorships in the Middle East which have a very good probability of ending up in a war with Israel using their American weapons.
Did you forget who else America supplies?
5. Allies spy on eachother. This is how international relations work. This is what America does. When one messes up, you settle it behind the scenes and squeeze concessions, like has always been done in the past. You do this because you know you do the same and in the end you have respect for your allies. Regarding Pollard I believe, America went over the top with that one.
I absolutely agree with you; we went over the top. We should have shot the son of a bitch.
By the way, I am an American and an Israeli, and I love and believe in both countries with all my heart. I would not hesitate for a second to give my life for either country in a second because I believe they both represent everything good in this world. And these days, good seems to be hard to come by...
By the way, I am an American of Irish heritage who is Jewish and I think the Protestant/Catholic battle in Northern Ireland is evil, led by evil terrorists, but it ain’t my fight. You would not hesitate to give your life for either Israel or the United States? You say you are an Israeli. Do you still return for duty? You say you are also an American. In what service did you participate in the defense of this land?
Pollard should have gotten a similar sentence!
I know of Black-Americans, Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans, Hispanic-Americans, Native Americans, etc, etc.
Just curious, inquiring minds want to know: why have I never, ever, heard of anyone describing himself or herself as an Israeli-American?
BTW, we could provide his last meal, I have this recipe for Cooked Goose, with.......
Information that Pollard stole included what Soviet targets American nuclear weapons were aimed at and I doubt that the US-Isreali intelligence sharing agreement included that. That information ended up in the Soviet Union. Hence Pollard was either selling to more than just Isreal or the Isrealis were really careless. Pollard is where he deserves to be and his Mossad handlers should join him.
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