The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[DouglasKC]

Your saying Jesus spent an entire chapter on the washings of hands?

The entire chapter was triggered by the Pharisees getting all up in face about not ritually washing his hands before he ate. This served as a platform for Jesus to point out their hyprocrisy and whatnot. It ENDS by Jesus re-itering that NOT washing your hands ritually DOESN'T defile you. You want to twist the words of Jesus to mean that he meant they could now go around eating pork and other animals considered unclean. NOBODY at that time thought that's what he meant. None of the Pharisees call him a lawbreaker because he's advocating eating pork. Nobody in the bible challenges him and says "Hey Jesus, do you mean to say that we can eat dogs now?". They never do because that's not what he meant at all. In other words, your interpetation isn't the way Jesus or anyone in the bible interpeted what he said. Again, it comes down to do I believe God or do I believe you?

[DouglasKC]

Exactly where in scripture does it say that Peter thought God was testing him? Or that he ever "put the whole picture together"? His dream meant what he said it meant IN THE BIBLE. That God told him he wasn't supposed to call any MAN common or unclean.
Right next to where it says the animals were stacked in a bloddy pile because God didn't have a shipping and packaging department to get them down to earth in a condition that Peter could see what was clean and unclean among them. LOL

Which, by the way was your interpetation again. I didn't interpet it that way. I described as best as I could based on the bible, what Peter saw and didn't go any further.

[DouglasKC]

"What's NOT obvious is that the food laws, which pre-existed Israel, were ever done away with. Food that wasn't good to eat in the past still isn't good to eat now...and won't be in the future if we are to believe bible prophecy. It was these ordinances and laws that drove the wedge between the Gentile and the Jew, because the Jew couldn’t get over the fact that the Gentiles weren’t keeping the meat laws, therefore they were dirty, and they shouldn’t be around unclean people like them. "

There was (is) much more to Jewish eating laws than whether or not certain animals are designated as clean or unclean. It was these ceremonial laws or ritual that were done away, not the designation of which animals were fit for human consumption or not. There was in the early church time, debate over whether or not gentiles should obey jewish ordinances, such as circumcision, dietary laws, and the like. Peter was one of the ones pushing this agenda, and it wasn't until Paul came to Jerusalem and confronted him did they nip this in the bud. This seems to me to show that if newly converted gentiles weren't required to keep these ordinances, than neither are Christians today.

[DouglasKC]

That's all from me on this subject, what you do is now your choice, and you certainly haven't entered into it blindly, and I have appeased my conscience by giving you the other side of the debate.
Just don't let it become a millstone to you.

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments, and His commandments are not burdensome.

[DouglasKC]

lol...I was trying to find a scriptural response and I think I found the orgin of the phrase "Eat S**t":

To clarify this, I was trying to come up with a humourous response to your post, so I looked up "excrement" and this is the first thing that came up...I didn't mean to imply that i wanted you to "eat s**t".

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I know, dont worry about it.

BigMack

[Iowegian]

God's covenant with Noah and his family is with all mankind, nothing in it has changed. Here is what God told Noah and family:

Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. Genesis 9:1-3

[OLD REGGIE]

(Reggie) Just how is Mary to lead us to Christ? Certainly we aren't to pray to Mary, are we?

I’ll give you the short answer. Follow her advice, "Do whatever he tells you." (Jn 2:5).

Let's look at John 2:

1 On the third day there was a marriage at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there;
2 Jesus also was invited to the marriage, with his disciples.
3 When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine."
4 And Jesus said to her, "O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come."
5 His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."

Does this sound like Mary asked Jesus to perform a miracle or, for that matter, to take any action at all, or does it sound like she was telling him "they have no wine"?

His mother deferred to Jesus, not the reverse as you wish to imagine. Her "Do whatever he tells you" is her contrite way of acknowledging Jesus as her leader.
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(Reggie) 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

That seems pretty clear. Only Jesus. No one else. What am I missing?

It would be helpful if you read the 1st 4 verses of 1 Timothy 2:

1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men,
2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.
3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I don’t see where these verses exclude the idea of other people praying for us, whether in heaven or on earth. I would say our prayers become efficacious because of Christ's Mediatorship since we pray in his name.

Of course, Paul is urging Timothy that prayers be offered for people who are currently living. It isn't even hinted that anyone but living people are asked to pray for living people. You chose a very poor example to "prove" your point. In this example, Paul isn't even suggesting prayers for the dead, let alone to the dead.
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(Reggie) Where in Scripture is it shown that Mary has a role beyond that of mother?

How about
“I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed; she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel." (Genisis 3:15)

Do you care to expound on this? This is a role for Mary?

Genesis 3:16 RSV To the woman he said, "I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you."

Do you still claim this is about Mary??
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Or

“Woman, behold thy son. After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own" (John 19:25-27).

Are you forgetting, or unaware, that Jesus's brothers didn't believe in him until the ressurection? Are you forgetting, or unaware, that John (the "one whom Jesus loved") was the only apostle present at the crucifiction? Jesus loved John, John was there, his mother was there, his brothers not only weren't there but they didn't believe in him . It was a natural for Jesus to ask John to take care of his mother.

A question for you: Where was Peter through all this?

[ksen]

Hello? Is anyone here?

*chirp* *chirp*

Guess not. Well have a Happy Resurrection Sunday (Easter for those of you in Rio Linda or Palm Beach County) everyone! ;^)

-ksen

[ksen]

Hey Dave,

I have some good news for you. The Patriots open their season playing the Steelers. It's a Monday night game so your guys have a chance. ;^)

-ksen

[OLD REGGIE]

Actually, at the wedding feast at Cana, as reported by John, Jesus first public miracle was done at the request of His Mother ."Do whatever He tells you " At her request, He turned water into wine .

OTOH, maybe, she does act in the role of mother (spititual),to us all when we ask her(pray) to intercede with Jesus for us .

She didn't "request" anything. Read it one more time. Please see my #37488 for a more complete reply.
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For years I have heard about "Jewish mothers", in the sense that they exert a WHOLE LOT of influence on their sons .

Anecdote is not Scripture.

Please remember:

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

IMO, your prayers are wasted if they are not made in the name of the Lord.

[OLD REGGIE]

I have some good news for you. The Patriots open their season playing the Steelers. It's a Monday night game so your guys have a chance. ;^)

Dave has taken the day off. It might be better if you repeat your zinger on Monday.

Do you care (dare) to predict how the Pats will do this season? (I don't dare predict anything.)

[Iowegian]

Well have a Happy Resurrection Sunday (Easter for those of you in Rio Linda or Palm Beach County) everyone! ;^)

Same to you and everyone else. BTW I call it "Resurrection Day" or "First Fruits" over Easter myself. God bless.

[Iowegian]

The Patriots open their season playing the Steelers.

Interesting fact: The last 3 eventual Super Bowl champs did not play on Monday night anytime during their championship season. You can look it up.

[OLD REGGIE]

(Payno) Actions speak louder then words.

I'm sorry you have trouble grasping the teaching of the Church regarding Mary.

Let's grant that only the chosen few can grasp the teaching of the Church. Please enlighten me:

What is the teaching of the RCC regarding birth control?

What is the birth rate among RC's in such countries as France, Italy, and the United States?

How is this birth rate maintained?

Explain the difference between the actions and words of these "good" Catholics who maintain such a low birth rate?

[DouglasKC]

Interesting fact: The last 3 eventual Super Bowl champs did not play on Monday night anytime during their championship season. You can look it up.

Yes! The Lions will win the Superbowl this year if this holds up! No Monday night games for them this season.

[DouglasKC]

God's covenant with Noah and his family is with all mankind, nothing in it has changed. Here is what God told Noah and family:
Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. Genesis 9:1-3

When God said "everything" did that mean animals that will make us sick or die if we eat them? For example, there are poisonous frogs that will cause instant death if ingested. There are also toxic insects, fish and other animals. When God said everything, did he really mean everything?

[OLD REGGIE]

(Iowegian) Interesting fact: The last 3 eventual Super Bowl champs did not play on Monday night anytime during their championship season. You can look it up.

Yes! The Lions will win the Superbowl this year if this holds up! No Monday night games for them this season.

I made fun of SD the other day because he was so happy the "Star of the Sea" name came about as a result of a great sea victory made possible by "praying the Rosary". He didn't have an answer when I asked what special power was in effect when England defeated the Spanish Armada or when the Patriots defeated the two "greatest teams in the NFL", Pittsburgh and St. Louis. (We definitely know it wasn't because they "prayed the Rosary".)

IOW, your anecdotal evidence is baloney!

[ksen]

Dave has taken the day off. It might be better if you repeat your zinger on Monday.

I know, I figured he would see it in his self-search when he returned. If he doesn't respond to by lunch on Monday I will "gently" remind him. ;^)

Do you care (dare) to predict how the Pats will do this season? (I don't dare predict anything.)

I'm with you, I think I'll leave the predicting to the Bob Ryan/Dan Shaughnessy types. I'm content just to watch.

-ksen

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Allright. Rams and Broncos right out of the shute this year.