Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Not according to Boniface VIII. Don't you think that if he meant to include an out he wouldn't have been so absolute in his language?
Things which are commonly understood do not need to be belabored.
It is also "absolutely necessary" for one to be properly Baptized before one can be saved.
No it isn't.
According to Catholic teaching. That was what we were discussing, no? I am showing you that similar "absolute" teachings can be affected by one's culpability.
But there are exceptions.
Maybe to you, but Boniface VIII was quite clear in what he said. Unless you submit to the Roman Pontiff, you cannot be saved.
There are exceptions to the absolute need to be baptized. That was my point. As for Bonifice, you have not shown that he did not intend for normal understanding to interpret his words. When we write statutes outlawing some activity, it goes without saying that one should be judged and found culpable before one has a penalty inflicted. Doesn't it?
As an aside, do you think he wrote this to try to bring the Orthodox into line?
I think there's a clear remark about "the Greeks" in there.
SD
What good would it do? Those that say they are worshipping really don't know they're just venerating. And once they're told that's what they're doing there's still no reason to change anything inwardly or outwardly.
What's a big sheet, held by its four corners, and coming back down to earth from heaven, full of previously unclean animals called?
Answer
God telling Peter that he has cleansed all animals, and they are now ceremonial clean to eat at our own discretion.
Why were they all unclean animals?
Why else were they taken up to heaven, then returned back to earth?
What was God doing with them up there?
(^g^) JH
Exactly. What is the real concern here? That some ignorant Catholics regard Mary as a god, or that Catholics are taught to revere and honor Mary, including acts like incensing and kneeling?
I am concerned with the former. If there are Catholics who truly believe that Mary is a divine being and is greater or equal to God, then they are in error and in danger of giving to Mary what is only due to God.
Y'all seem to be only concerned about the latter.
SD
Another NCC that can read hearts. That’s three of you in two days. How would you know the interior disposition of anyone?
Nope. We do have a statement of faith that we ask people to become familiar with and to agree with if they want to join our congregation.
-ksen
Nope. We do have a statement of faith that we ask people to become familiar with and to agree with if they want to join our congregation.
OK. So do we. There is no indication given that one should regard Mary as a divine being or worship her. So we don't assume that anyone is doing this. Please see my last post.
SD
BigMack
Why, Mack, that sounds awfully like a Catholic complaint. ;-)
(That is, "don't just quote verses, tell me what you think they mean!")
SD
My concern is that “some ignorant Catholics” are regarding Mary as a god BECAUSE of Catholic teaching dealing with venerating and adoring Mary.
-ksen
Well I am thinking about converting, what do you say to us comming to live with you for a year or so and you be my mentor? I won't bring any wood or matches. :)
BigMack
I see your concern, but I think it is largely unfounded. Shall we not exercise our beliefs because we are afraid some might misunderstand?
If we silence ourselves and suppress our joy about saints, would that make us better Christians? Or would we be suppressing part of the Truth along with it?
SD
Singing songs is one I have a problem with. I love good gospel singing and music and this is an aspect of worship as you say. I've often wondered why the psalms aren't used more as in Jesus and the disciples sang psalms. The problem for me is that if a song has words that I don't agree with, it's like pouring ice water on my worship and my heart sinks within me. I absolutely cannot engage in a song which contains what I would consider false doctrine.
If you want to live in a house with a teething baby, come on up! She's just about got teeth 3 and 4 now. :-)
SD
They weren't all unclean animals.
Act 10:12 in which were all the four-footed animals of the earth, and the wild beasts, and the reptiles, and the birds of the heaven.
There was a mixture of clean and unclean animals...perhaps all animals since it was a vision.
Why else were they taken up to heaven, then returned back to earth?
What was God doing with them up there?
It was vision that Peter had, a symbolic dream, a trance. It means whatever Peter interpeted it to mean. But what is your opinion?
Come to a Catholic Church. We sing a Psalm in every Mass.
The problem for me is that if a song has words that I don't agree with, it's like pouring ice water on my worship and my heart sinks within me. I absolutely cannot engage in a song which contains what I would consider false doctrine.
But of course. A congregation should never sing songs that contain doctrine they don't agree about. The hymns have a way of teaching correct doctrine, if allowed to do so.
SD
How? We weren't told by Jesus not to judge, we were told to make measured judgements. We're called to be fruit testers. It's not just a word game. We must walk the walk if were gonna talk the talk.
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