The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
TNS Archives

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

business meetings says it all! I HATE the buisness aspect of "church" today.

I do not like it because of it's exclusion and buisness mindset.

And do you think tkings will "just happen" if from time to time you don't have business meetings? We live in a world that forces us to live by its rules and Jesus told us to abide by them unless it goes against Gods Word and we have to have meetings so all can help deside the workings of the church, with the leadership of the pastor, were all in this together.

BigMack

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

First of all, "church membership" (seperate from disciple election in Acts) is a "man made" tradition which is exclusionary and we do not have the right to say who is or is not a member of the "Church".

What if I were to come into your church and ask to become a member with my views on what the bible teaches about(Independent Fundemental Baptist) and begin to teach others what I believe, would you welcome me with open arms?

BigMack

[RobbyS]

Why do we have to read any further? The Marian doctrines were made out of whole cloth centuries after the Ascension of Christ.

I don't think you are going to be turning anyone to your way of thinking by using an article that says what you are doing with Mary is "worship".

I am not trying to "turn" anyone whose premise is that Christianity is what is fossilized in the text of New Testament. What you might learn here is how the cult of Mary developed over the course of centuries. You might even notice that it first really flowered as a result of the Arian dispute, as a popular reaction--an evident distaste, --to the rationalism of Arius. For at the root of his theology, like that of Voltaire and the other men of the "Enlightenment", is a rejection of the doctrine of the Incarnation, that God has entered history. The popular veneration of the Virgin as Theotokos is the antithesis of his intellectualism, which by the way finds many echoes in the "progressive" Catholicism of our times, such as in the writtings of Hans Kueng.

[OLD REGGIE]

Did you post that article just to torture us?

Why don't you find one which shows the Apostles "worshiping" Mary. You might gain a few converts.

[RobbyS]

Oh, you mean taking a cup of wine and a piece of bread, like at Passover, and remembering Mary ...er... Christ.

You might look at the actual prayers that are said at the mass. Mary is mentioned only in passing. That way you wouldn't be making stupid remarks like this.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I am not trying to "turn" anyone whose premise is that Christianity is what is fossilized in the text of New Testament. What you might learn here is how the cult of Mary developed over the course of centuries. You might even notice that it first really flowered as a result of the Arian dispute, as a popular reaction--an evident distaste, --to the rationalism of Arius. For at the root of his theology, like that of Voltaire and the other men of the "Enlightenment", is a rejection of the doctrine of the Incarnation, that God has entered history. The popular veneration of the Virgin as Theotokos is the antithesis of his intellectualism, which by the way finds many echoes in the "progressive" Catholicism of our times, such as in the writtings of Hans Kueng.

Now thats pretty tuff stuff on a "country boy." :)

BigMack

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

HERBERT THURSTON

The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XV Copyright © 1912 by Robert Appleton Company

I'm hitting the abuse button. :)

BigMack

[DouglasKC]

Congrats both of you on post #10000! conservonator got the numbered one, but DouglasKC got 10003, which, with the skips, is the 'real' 10000'th post to this thread. Cheeseheads for both of you!

Wow...I'm honored that I snuck in there for the prize.

Thanks!

In gratitude, I would like to share with everyone the knock knock joke that is taking Michigan by storm:

Knock knock.
Who's there?
Owen.
Owen who?
Owen 11.

Next week at this time, the last line will read "Owen 12". Let he who has an ear understand.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Did you post that article just to torture us?

Smoke started comming out of the back of my puter when this came up. :)

BigMack

[OLD REGGIE]

I am not trying to "turn" anyone whose premise is that Christianity is what is fossilized in the text of New Testament. What you might learn here is how the cult of Mary developed over the course of centuries. You might even notice that it first really flowered as a result of the Arian dispute, as a popular reaction--an evident distaste, --to the rationalism of Arius. For at the root of his theology, like that of Voltaire and the other men of the "Enlightenment", is a rejection of the doctrine of the Incarnation, that God has entered history. The popular veneration of the Virgin as Theotokos is the antithesis of his intellectualism, which by the way finds many echoes in the "progressive" Catholicism of our times, such as in the writtings of Hans Kueng.

In your Church you don't need the New Testament. It would just get in the way. Why don't you just say it? The New Testament is worthless.

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

And do you think tkings will "just happen" if from time to time you don't have business meetings? We live in a world that forces us to live by its rules and Jesus told us to abide by them unless it goes against Gods Word and we have to have meetings so all can help deside the workings of the church, with the leadership of the pastor, were all in this together.

I understand the need for money. I love Pauls only real talk on the matter. He asked for money only from those who he ministered first to. The Corinthians. And he would not have asked had they not offered in the first place. He asked area's where Christians were rich to help out area's where Christians were poor. Peter helped the church community get started by a "dividing of wealth" which was also voluntary!
There is no case, where a church is an operating business in the Bible, but a generous community of brothers which should come naturally to the believer.
You should not need to ask for rent money. Why are you paying rent? Meet in a home or park. If you are too big, divide up into smaller meetings.

Why is a pastor not self-sufficient? He is not a traveling missionary or evangelist. Christ did not restart the Levitical process after He came. It led to corrupt, money loving priests. (sounds familiar) Neither did Paul. Christ fufilled the law, He didn't conform it to the Christian Church image.

[saradippity]

Becky,

How did your Ladies Devotional turn out?

[JHavard]

Angelo, I won’t even try to answer the put down part of your post, and I’m not trying to establish a new doctrine or truth, I was simply surprised that there is no talk of forgiveness in the OT other then God doing, and being asked to do the forgiving.

I don’t know if you read my post #10140 but I did search other related words, and still found none that were really dealing with the issue of God telling men to forgive men.

You gave me 3 scriptures that you seemed to think answered the question, The first one about Joseph, in Gen 50:17 after Jacob died the brothers of Joseph feared he may have them killed so they had a messenger deliver a letter to him saying that the father Jacob had asked him to forgive the brothers for what they had done to him.

this was not God telling men to forgive men, but men trying to save their own behind, since it seems they lied to Joseph again about Jacob commanding him to forgive them.

The next example is Prov 17:9 where you quote “He who forgives an offence seeks love.”

Most translations say “He who covers a transgression”, in fact out of 9 translations, and the KJV being the one I searched, only two others offered the “Forgive an offence” and they were the RSV and the NRS, and even then, they were not direct words from God, but words of wisdom.

The 3rd quote you gave was Lev 19:18 and it said nothing using the word “forgiveness”, but was talking about not taking vengeance and loving your neighbor, while it may be the spiritual equivalent of forgiveness, it is not the word, and that’s what this discussion was about, and as I already said, the whole OT was about love, but I am still surprised their was no word commonly used for it.

So it appears it is not my search feature, and I know the word is in the Gospels thank you, but it is the OT I'm talking about.

[DouglasKC]

Holy cow! Do you want to sum that up for those of too darn lazy to read it all the way through? :-)

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

And do you think tkings will "just happen" if from time to time you don't have business meetings? We live in a world that forces us to live by its rules and Jesus told us to abide by them unless it goes against Gods Word and we have to have meetings so all can help deside the workings of the church, with the leadership of the pastor, were all in this together.

If we were on that topic you could share your views and we would study them in scripture. I would not have individual classes or teachers at my home. It would be as a Bible study. And we would stay on topic. I certainly wouldn't just talk at you for an hour and send you home!!!

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

How did your Ladies Devotional turn out?

Shes in bed with a bad tooth, but it went very well, I'll let her tell you later.

BigMack

[RobbyS]

Did you post that article just to torture us? Well, of course!

What makes you think the early church didn't worship Mary? If you were they, wouldn't you venerate the mother of the Lord? Even from a Protestant standpoint she must be recognized, as Luke did, as numbering among the first Christians, and the only woman identified by name at the meeting that chose the replacement for Judas, was Mary.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

If we were on that topic you could share your views and we would study them in scripture. I would not have individual classes or teachers at my home. It would be as a Bible study. And we would stay on topic. I certainly wouldn't just talk at you for an hour and send you home!!!

But what if after we had had our bible study and I still had the same views I came with and not willing to change, would you accept me in your church?

BigMack

[JHavard]

Shes in bed with a bad tooth, but it went very well, I'll let her tell you later.

I'm surprised, didn't you check her teeth before you bought her? LOl (^g^)pssssssst, don't tell Becky I asked that.

[JHavard]

What makes you think the early church didn't worship Mary? If you were they, wouldn't you venerate the mother of the Lord?

I really tried to consider this question, and with the understanding I have with the second Commandment, I must say I could never have worshiped her, but had you not made idols and statues and such of her, I may have given her much more thought as to her part in our salvation though.