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Senate by voice vote passes admendment to bill for Pilots to carry firearms(my title)
AP ^ | 10/11/01 | Jim Abrams

Posted on 10/11/2001 3:06:08 PM PDT by Dane

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To: Dane
There shouldn't have had to be a vote in the first place. The Senators that voted yes were just doing their job. The Senators that voted "no" need to be identified. I mean, how else is a person and the people to know who they are really voting for. To think that all the Senators let that mini-miscarriage of justice against the people speaks for how and why the Senate let a gross-miscarriage of justice against the people occur when all Senators broke their oath of office by not abiding by the Constitution -- they let Clinton remain as President.

The ends can never justify the means.

41 posted on 10/11/2001 4:00:22 PM PDT by Zon
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To: clamper1797
I think this is related, but I`m new to the forum and they won`t let me post a new thread.

Gun Control Book Based on Faulty Data Wednesday, October 10, 2001 Glenn Harlan Reynolds Respond to Editor Email this Article Emory University historian Michael Bellesiles caused quite a splash when he published Arming America: The Origins of the National Gun Culture, a book that ostensibly turned our understanding of the Second Amendment on its head. The book was enthusiastically received and celebrated by the media establishment, who welcomed it with rave reviews and awards and pronounced the book proof that the Second Amendment does not protect individual gun ownership. Bellesiles' thesis was that the framers of the Constitution must not have intended the Second Amendment to protect an individual right to own guns because private gun ownership was exceedingly rare at the time—and stayed that way until after the Civil War when the NRA nefariously created the "gun culture" that we know today and that we ascribe, incorrectly, to the framers. Bellesiles backed up his theses with claims that he checked thousands of probate records and discovered that guns were scarce at the time of the framing. This thesis was provocative, but it also appears to be wrong. In fact, it appears to be worse than wrong. People who have checked Bellesiles' claims against the probate records that he says he consulted have found that he drastically under states the number of guns they show. Northwestern University law professor James Lindgren, an expert in probate records who has closely examined Bellesiles’ work, told the Boston Globe that "in virtually every part of the book examined in detail, there are problems." "It's clear that this book is impressive to legal and social historians who do not check the background. Law professors and quantitative historians have been suspicious about the book since its release." The data sets Bellesiles' drew from the probate records he claims to have examined are unavailable; Bellesiles says they were destroyed in a flood. Even more damning, one set of records that Bellesiles says he relied on were destroyed in the 1906 San Francisco earthquake and have been unavailable to anyone since then without access to a time machine. Various scholars have been criticizing Bellesiles' research for months, but on Sept. 11, the Globe—fresh from breaking the tale of historian Joe Ellis’s Vietnam falsehoods — published a story revealing that the paper had investigated the claims against Bellesiles and found them to be true. This was little noticed at the time, owing to other events, but on Oct. 3, Emory University decided that the criticisms constituted "prima facie evidence of scholarly misconduct," and ordered Bellesiles to account for himself. What explanation Bellesiles will offer is unclear, but a finding of unforgivable sloppiness seems to be about the best he can hope for. But for our purposes, it doesn’t matter whether Bellesiles is a fraud or merely exceedingly careless. Because there’s another failure here, one that in some ways was far more serious than Bellesiles’. Extraordinary claims, Carl Sagan said, require extraordinary evidence. And that evidence itself requires extraordinary examination. Yet Bellesiles’ claims – which counted as "provocative" precisely because they were in conflict with everything we thought we knew about the history of guns in America – got just the opposite. The people who should have examined his evidence rushed to embrace it, because it told them what they wanted to hear. Writer Garry Wills, who reviewed the book for the The New York Times Book Review, wrote that "Bellesiles deflates the myth of the self-reliant and self-armed virtuous yeoman of the Revolutionary militias." The Chronicle of Higher Education featured the book on its front page, with the headline "Exploding the Myth of an Armed America." The American Prospect wrote that "The image of . . . the American founders believing in an individual’s right to keep and bear arms . . . turns out to be a myth." Arming America even received the (up to now) prestigious Bancroft Prize from Columbia University. Instead of reviewers who might be skeptical of Bellesiles’ research, mainstream publications assigned reviewers who were antigun. Wills, for example, has had a reputation as rabidly antigun for years. Carl Bogus, who reviewed the book for The American Prospect, is a longtime gun-control activist. Richard Slotkin, who praised Arming America in The Atlantic Monthly, has referred to the notion of guns as instruments of liberty and equality as "self-evidently crazy." That such reviewers would not expend any great effort in checking out Bellesiles’ claims should come as no surprise, and in fact they didn’t. But this raises an interesting question about the claim that mainstream, traditional media organizations always make in defense of their importance: that they are careful and responsible, while alternative media and the Internet are not. The Internet, they tell us, is a domain of hype and hoaxes, while traditional media can be trusted to check things out and get them right. Yet if one looks at Amazon.Com’s reviews of Arming America, it is immediately evident that Amazon reviewers found the problems with Bellesiles’ book a year ago, while the establishment was still smitten. On Oct. 24, 2000, for example, Amazon reader Sondra Wilkins did something that Garry Wills did not: she checked some of Bellesiles’ sources and reported: "In checking his sources, often the ones he lists, even the particular pages that he lists, contain evidence that contradicts his claims. He quotes parts of sentences from those sources and ignores the contradictory information on that same page." Another reader, David Ihnat, said he couldn’t believe Bellesiles’ claim that it took 3 minutes to load and fire a muzzle-loading rifle. His report: "Never having fired a flintlock before, I tried to load and fire 10 times in succession, and was able to average 50 seconds per load." His conclusion: "Bellesiles has an axe to grind, and worked it throughout this book." Meanwhile, elsewhere on the Internet, amateur scholars were posting long critiques of Bellesiles’ work, only to see those critiques dismissed by Bellesiles and his defenders as the work of those ignorant yahoos on the Internet. It appears, however, that the Internet is sometimes harder to fool than the establishment. Five days after the Globe story appeared, the New York Times was repeating Wills’ praise of Arming America in support of the paperback version. Keep this in mind the next time the establishment is rallying behind a "provocative" scholarly analysis that just happens to echo views that the establishment has always held. Glenn Harlan Reynolds is Professor of Law at the University of Tennessee College of Law, and writes for the InstaPundit.Com.

42 posted on 10/11/2001 4:04:33 PM PDT by philetus
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To: timydnuc
Post #29--I BET you nailed it. I been skimming down thru this thread, wondering how my fatass sinator--Bitch Hitlery--voted (assuming she was present TO vote) and the odds are overwhelming that she stepped down off her broom long enough to vote against providing airline passengers with that last line of defense. . .an armed pilot. She doesn't believe in the adage of the firearm: "No matter what their strength or size, depend on me: I EQUALIZE." Nor would she let other passengers carry boxcutters or any other protective device. I guarantee the bitch would sacrifice every American in every situation to support her hatred of firearms---and the same goes X10 for that smirking weasel Chas. Screwmer--my other A.H. senator.
43 posted on 10/11/2001 4:09:04 PM PDT by D2BAH
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To: VRWC_minion
And not only that, I am getting tired of suffering from anxiety every time a swarthy gentleman walks from the rear of the plane up to a toilet near the front.

Racing through my mind during those moments are the questions: "Should we pound him into the floor, or let him go to the bathroom."

Letting the pilots carry firearms would definitely reduce the tension.

44 posted on 10/11/2001 4:10:02 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: 2nd amendment mama
ping
45 posted on 10/11/2001 4:10:28 PM PDT by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
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To: 69ConvertibleFirebird
Regrettably the $900 golf bag does not have the "Caddy Shack" ammenities (I wish it did). It is full "pro" and real (softer than a baby's butt) genuine leather with enough pockets and compartments to haul around a weeks worth of clothing/food/golf balls...whatever. I won it in a golf tournment....long time ago. Thanks for the image of "Caddy Shack" though.
46 posted on 10/11/2001 4:13:52 PM PDT by timydnuc
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To: timydnuc
If it was by voice there is no listing, it's done by decible level. Remember we still use that old parliamentary method: the "yays" shout out, then the "nays" shout out, then the guy in charge either announces that he feels side X won or that he couldn't tell, if the former any member can request a "hand" vote (this is automatic if the guy in charge says he can't tell) where in each member will vote in such away that actually records it as HIS vote, that happen 99% of the time so that people can "be on record" with their position. But every now and then they all prefer the cover of anonymity and let the voice vote stand, this is a classic one of those times because with or without the pilots armed there will be "incidents" that people on the other side of the issue (in this case the gun grabbers) can point to and nobody is going to want to take the blame. So they let the voice vote stand and everybody that didn't speak during consideration of the bill can claim whatever position is most convenient.
47 posted on 10/11/2001 4:14:24 PM PDT by discostu
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To: Dane
Cool!
48 posted on 10/11/2001 4:16:18 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: Dane
If this really happened it is a little redundant. My understanding is that the FAA always allowed pilots to be armed. It was the airlines that banned it. Nothing has changed.
49 posted on 10/11/2001 4:23:41 PM PDT by Spin
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Comment #50 Removed by Moderator

To: NotJustAnotherPrettyFace
ping
51 posted on 10/11/2001 4:30:55 PM PDT by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
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To: D2BAH
I'm sorry you have these "useful idiots" as your Senators. I'm not going to say that I'm sorry that you live in New York, as some people might tell you. It's your home, it's the place that gives you goosebumps when you think of home, and family, and friends. The socialists have taken New York as their undisputed home. They seem to forget that there are real people, real American people that live there too.

You are one of them, my friend. Your fight against the likes of Hildabeast and Chuckie "the face" is equal to the same fight I have in Minnesota against Mark Dayton and the registered socialist Paul "I never met a liberty I wouldn't take away from the grovelling masses" Wellstone. We have many things in common. The pinnacle of the things we have in common is a love of country, and a love of liberty. Well, then so be it! We may be a minority (although I don't think so) but we have a strong, healthy back, and we have a mind, and we have a mouth. Let's change things!

LET'S ROLL! Defeat the enemy without and the traitors within. We can do it, we're Americans, we can do anything!!

Good luck, and may Godspeed my friend from New York!

52 posted on 10/11/2001 4:35:44 PM PDT by timydnuc
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To: Dane
Hot darn. Did they get a lot of letters from the public about this? I suppose there's hope that the house will do as well as the Democrap controlled senate.
53 posted on 10/11/2001 4:37:09 PM PDT by dr_who
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To: 69ConvertibleFirebird
Regrettably the $900 golf bag does not have the "Caddy Shack" ammenities (I wish it did). It is full "pro" and real (softer than a baby's butt) genuine leather with enough pockets and compartments to haul around a weeks worth of clothing/food/golf balls...whatever. I won it in a golf tournment....long time ago. Thanks for the image of "Caddy Shack" though.
54 posted on 10/11/2001 4:39:00 PM PDT by timydnuc
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To: VRWC_minion
"I would rather have the airline pilot have the last shot from his gun than have the fighter pilot have the last shot from his missle launcher"


now you know how "cruisers" feel...

Audio

55 posted on 10/11/2001 4:41:52 PM PDT by hoot2
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To: philetus
I can see why - you need to go to HTML Sandbox....immediately.
56 posted on 10/11/2001 4:47:48 PM PDT by anniegetyourgun
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To: Dane
Something tells me that even the lilly-livered libs are having to admit that they too will feel safer this way.
57 posted on 10/11/2001 4:50:16 PM PDT by anniegetyourgun
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To: SUSSA
ping
58 posted on 10/11/2001 4:51:40 PM PDT by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
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To: Dane
Polls show that a significant majority of the public support this measure. Shrillary wouldn't dare step in front of that truck by demanding a recorded vote and putting her on record against it.
59 posted on 10/11/2001 4:52:07 PM PDT by justlurking
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To: copycat
Why authorize a right when no one gave you the "right" to deny it in the first place? Hypocrites.
60 posted on 10/11/2001 4:53:40 PM PDT by l0newolf
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