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To: Cincinatus
re : And you believe the reasons for their loss would be what?.

France as did Britain and Germany lost so many men in the slaughter of the First World War, the flower of youth was mown down in one battle after another.

After the war a revulsion set in, a thought of never again.

America although only in the war for a year experienced a similar feeling, during the 1930s the American army was cut to the bone, but she had the Pacific and Atlantic to protect her.

During the 20s and 30s revelation swept through Europe, this was partly due to the slaughter, after the loss of so much life, people expected a better world instead the world went into depression, France coping with massive reconstruction was very badly hit, as her population polarised between Nationalists and Socialists and Communists, there were strikes and street battles. Government after Government fell.

The old Maximum that Generals always prepare for the last war rang true in France and to a lesser extent my own country. Remembering the slaughter especially the Battle of Verdun which was burnt into the mind of every French Officer they built the Maginot Line.

Not only did this encourage a defensive attitude but it swallowed up a lot of money that could of been used to modernise the French Military, her communications net was a shambles.

The Germans struck using tried and tested blitzkrieg methods, I will not give a blow by blow account of the movements, but it was almost textbook, good use of tacticle air support, applying overwhelming force at weak spots, breaking through and causing havoc in the rear.

The French Army were demoralised, but when led were able to defeat the Germans in local battles, a hasty counter attack by de Gaulle's hastily formed 4th Armoured Division routed a German Panzer Division.

The Germans had better tactics and were better led, they were more highly motivated since they burnt with the zeal of National Socialism.

During the occupation many collaborated but many also fought back.

Free French Forces fought along side my country in North Africa, where they fought well, French Troops also took part in DDay.

The Germans used those same tactics in Russia, it was only Russia size and strength that saved her, Britain was saved by the channel.

America is lucky she has three factors in her favour, her size, the Pacific and the Atlantic

Tony

87 posted on 10/08/2001 9:38:56 AM PDT by tonycavanagh
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To: tonycavanagh
I guess I don't disagree with a lot of what you wrote. However, the fact remains that the chaotic conditions in France between the wars also prevailed in Germany, in many cases, to an even greater degree. Germany faced strikes, revolutions, chronic inflation followed by bust and depression, and of course, the ever-helpful communist "assistance."

Yet, it was Germany who won the Battle of France. In about a month, no less. Why?

In actual fact, the problem with France then was quite similar to the problem with them now -- an absolute, unshakeable certainty in their own superiority. Despite the lessons of the Great War, they still believed in the doctrine of offensive. They had hoped that the Maginot Line would hold back the Germans on the right long enough for the French Army and BEF to counterpunch them back through the low countries on the French left.

Well, the Maginot Line did hold on the French right. And they probably would have succeeded in counterpunching well enough in the low countries on the left. They only forgot about one thing -- the center. The Germans simply came through the "impassable" Ardennes, with all of their armor. And proceeded to stomp a mud hole in French behinds.

So what is to be learned historically from this episode? First, while not lacking in courage, the French possess a paucity of strategic insight, at least since the days of Napoleon (who was a Corsican, anyway). Second, they are unaware of their lack of strategic genius, again thanks to the Napoleonic legacy, and consider any non-Frenchman to be automatically, a fool. Finally, that most of the war jokes made at French expense are not deserved, but at least some of them are.

Yes, I know that DeGaulle warned them about the tanks. A prophet is without honor in his own land.

90 posted on 10/08/2001 10:14:34 AM PDT by Cincinatus
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To: tonycavanagh
Tony, I was pretty young during WWII but the strategies and tactics are burned into my memory. Like the American know-it-alls who pooh-poohed Gen. Billy Mitchell's insistence on the importance of air power during the 20s and 30s, the French put all their poker chips on fixed defenses (Maginot Line) and propaganda aimed to lull their own public's fears as well as to intimidate the Germans, as you said. They were fighting the last war. They claimed to be invulnerable.

Hitler's genius was unleashing the technological creativity bubbling in Germany, and building on military and technological concepts developed during World War I (by the British and Americans, mainly, but also the French). He put Werner von Braun to work at Peenemunde using rocket science pioneered by American Robert H. Goddard, another genius whose work was rejected by the American military. Hitler clearly understood the importance of air supremacy and used Stuka dive bombers leapfrog the Maginot to destroy French military targets. He perfected the Western allies' concept of blitzkrieg which is outlined as follows:

"Heinz Guderian organized Panzers into self-contained Panzer Divisions working with the close support of infantry, motorized infantry, artillery and airforce. From 1933 to 1939, Germany was on a quest to fully mechanize their army for an upcoming conflict.

"German High Command used Spanish Civil War (1936-38) as a testing ground for Blitzkrieg tactics, which proved to be a formidable combination of land and air action. In September of 1939, Germany invaded Poland using mechanized ground force (Wehrmacht) working with the close support of the airforce (Luftwaffe) to breakthrough and penetrate deep behind Polish lines of defense - Polish Campaign (Fall Weiss). In May of 1940, during the invasion of the Low Countries and France, the Germans once again used same tactics (including the use of Fallschirmjaeger - paratroops) to shock and disorganize the defenders.

From October of 1940 to March of 1941, Germans conquered Balkans using the same proven tactics. When in June of 1941, Germany invaded Russia, tactics of Blitzkrieg allowed them to reach the outskirts of Moscow in December of 1941.

"Tactics of Blitzkrieg were also implemented with great success by Erwin Rommel in North Africa (1941-1943). Since late 1942, outnumbered German Army was fighting a defensive war on two fronts and was unable to launch any major offensives with exception of Kursk (June of 1943) and Ardennes (December of 1944) offensive. Overall, tactics of Blitzkrieg were the main contributor of early German victories (1939-1942), when German supply base and logistics were able to maintain the speed of the advancing units. This was not the case on the Eastern Front and in the North Africa, when limited German supply base and logistics were unable to cope with transportation and weather conditions decreasing effectivness of German attacks and armed forces in general.

"At the same time, potential of Blitzkrieg was fully appreciated by the Allies, who implemented its tactics on all fronts. US Army General George Patton used Blitzkrieg tactics in his European operations of 1944. After World War II, tactics of Blitzkrieg were used by Israeli forces during their numerous conflicts with the Arab Nations as well as by American forces during the Operation Desert Storm.

"Overall, tactics of Blitzkrieg are based on coordinated, concentrated and precise air and land attacks to provide a rapid and powerful punch through the enemy lines in order to eventually encircle the enemy. Important factor behind mobile warfare was communication between the HQ and field units and vice-versa, as well as prepared starting points along with supply base and logistics to maintain the speed of the initial attack. Although, it is often forgotten that suprise was also very important to the success of Blitzkrieg and that is why Germany never declared war on any country that it attacked."

Two other factors were decisive against the Germans in their assault on Russia: the Russian winter, which defeated Napoleon as well; and American lend-lease which, thanks to an awesome manufacturing base (now long gone) was able to re-supply Stalingrad at a critical juncture and turn the tide of battle.

The French problem, then and now, was/is a sense of moral superiority and smugness. This is in large part an American problem as well. It sets a country up for being sucker-punched as happened on 9-11.

102 posted on 10/08/2001 11:30:03 PM PDT by Bernard Marx
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