Sinners In the Hands of an Angry God

International Outreach, Inc. ^ | Jonathan Edwards

[Goreknowshowtocheat]

Gads, I did not know the principles you espouse. I am a poor uneducated logician. Dismantling our intelligence networks, selling sensitive technology to our enemies and generally back-slapping around with terrorists has no consequence. I never could have come up with your principles in a hundred years. Did you do all by yourself? Jonathan Edwards came along too soon to benefit from your new found intelligence. Only terrorists have responsibility? Glad you enlightened me. Oh, when that missile from China comes I hope you won't violate principles by noting that Clinton (who sold the targeting technology) has any responsibility.

[Gracey]

You all belong with the Conspiracy Theorists, such as Michael Rivero.

What a bunch of garbage.

[Jerry_M]

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (I Corinthians 1:18)

Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. (I Peter 2:6-8)

Were your words intended to make me feel bad? That somehow I was a "bad" Christian for causing you to run away from Christ? Sorry, but your reaction validates my theology. If you are His, He will call you (see John 10), if you are not, then your words are indicative of those who find offence in the Gospel and stumble over its truth.

[Storm Orphan]

I ask again, in what context?

In the irrational context of Original Sin, which holds men guilty for crimes they did not commit?

[harbinger of doom]

I understand. I don't consider Calvinism sound doctrine for 4 reasons. I bet you can guess what they are. If you can't I'll help you: ULIP. I can offer some grace to the total depravity of man. That is as far as I will walk with you. The CRC church is "dead".

[jjbrouwer]

Blue, I was with you on the thread where we were given this insight into some of our religious friends...

watsonfellow: ...one of the more entertaining features of the FreeRepublic site (for Catholics at least) is watching the Prods go crazy and start attacking Catholics.....Let the fighting commence!

While I am happy watsonfellow and his fellow believers have found somewhere to 'entertain' themselves, I think I will stick to being a 'sinner' all the same.

[Jerry_M]

""born guilty" jibberish"

You mean "original sin"? As in the fact that all of us are sinners by nature?

Continue to think that men are born "good" if you choose, the universal nature of sin and wickedness undermines your position.

[Storm Orphan]

Dismantling our intelligence networks, selling sensitive technology to our enemies and generally back-slapping around with terrorists has no consequence.

I don't think anything I said supports this assertion.

Outside culpability of other parties or laxness in security is far removed from saying "God did this."

[Jerry_M]

"In the irrational context of Original Sin, which holds men guilty for crimes they did not commit?"

How about: "which holds men guilty for the crime they did commit"?

Like it or not, you were in Eden, you sinned, you are guilty (as is the entire cast of humanity, save one).

[Jerry_M]

"This thread is spam."

One man's "spam" is another man's "filet mignon".

[Goreknowshowtocheat]

God does not do it. He warns us that there are principles in place that we can choose to obey or not. When we violate principles, we get what is coming to us. We voted (not me) but a majority voted Clinton into office twice where he could do such damage. The citizens bear no responsibility?

[Storm Orphan]

Like it or not, you were in Eden, you sinned, you are guilty (as is the entire cast of humanity, save one).

For starters, this is a demonstrably false fairy tale. That aside, the concept that one can be guilty without having taken an action - just by being - is a slap in the face of the concept of morality.

Morality by definition implies choice. Where there is no choice, morality is not an issue. And guilt falls on the actor, not his descendants. You can't be guilty of something that happened before you were born.

Finally, this is important - morality could not even apply to the myth of the Fall, because if Adam and Eve were ignorant of good and evil, then they could not have known disobedience was wrong. They didn't understand why it was wrong any more than a dog understands a computer.

The whole of the doctrine does not survive even the most cursory of scrutinies. I'm sure it once satisfied desert nomads lacking much in the way of literacy, but it rings hollow.

[Storm Orphan]

5,000 countrymen died by fire because the wrong boob got voted into office?

You have a pretty twisted and evil god there, with no sense of proportion.

[OWK]

I submit to you, that the 2 month old baby which died (to use your words) at the "hands of an Angry God"... was in fact innocent. This child could not even comprehend sin, much less commit it.

Your beliefs are perverse.

[Jerry_M]

"Your beliefs are perverse."

Argue with both the Old and New Testaments, not with me.

The difference between us is the fact that whereas I once believed the "lie of Eden" (as do all unregenerate men) you still do.

[Sir Gawain]

So when is someone condemned to hell? At birth?

[OWK]

Argue with both the Old and New Testaments, not with me. The difference between us is the fact that whereas I once believed the "lie of Eden" (as do all unregenerate men) you still do.

The difference between you and I sir... Is that I don't believe ANY of these fairy tales and myths that men use to justify the evil that they do to one another.

[ksen]

How about a country where it is free to be religious or not be religious.

That is this one, I would fight for your right to not believe, although it would sadden me that you didn't believe.

One that is centered on mans' laws, not some 2,000 year old book that is open to endless debate among the faithful. Kind of like the one we are trying to keep.

This country was not founded on man's laws, it was founded on the belief that there is a God and He has Laws. I think a brief reading of a majority of the Founders or even just the Declaration of Independence will bear me out on that.

Surely you, in your tolerant Christian mode, are not suggesting that people who disagree with you and your God, leave the country. Are you?

No, and I'm not sure how you could get that from what I posted.

Oh, by the way... I do not have a problem with individuals and their relationship with their God.

Thank you.

I do have a problem with most orginized religions and those who try to force their beliefs on others.

I also do not believe in forcing my views on others. I do believe that, in my relationship with my God, I have a responsibility to share the Gospel with others. If they believe, that is great; if they do not believe, that is between them and God. My responsibility ends when I tell people the Gospel.

-ksen

[Jerry_M]

O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help. I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes? I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took him away in my wrath. The iniquity of Ephraim is bound up; his sin is hid. The sorrows of a travailing woman shall come upon him: he is an unwise son; for he should not stay long in the place of the breaking forth of children. I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. Though he be fruitful among his brethren, an east wind shall come, the wind of the LORD shall come up from the wilderness, and his spring shall become dry, and his fountain shall be dried up: he shall spoil the treasure of all pleasant vessels. Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. (Hosea 3:9-16)

If God would bring this kind of punishment upon His "chosen people" for their sins (including selecting bad leadership!), why should we expect to escape his wrath?

God allowed the Assyrians to carry out these things against Israel, these prophecies were fulfilled. What awaits an unrepentant USA?