GOD DID IT, PART II

Dynamist.com ^

[VinnyTex]

GOD DID IT, PART II: Reader Randall Parker calls my attention to this Worldnet Daily article by Anthony C. LoBaido, which makes Jerry Falwell's offensive theodicy look sophisticated and kind. A small sample:

Is New York the head of the "Great Satan"? All that is evil in the world can be found in New York: MTV, the United Nations, the U.N. abortion programs, the Council on Foreign Relations, New Age Church of St. John the Divine, Wall Street greed, Madison Avenue manipulation and of course more confirmed AIDS cases than the rest of America combined. Let's remember the filthy sodomite gay parade last summer in New York. Let's remember all the New York politicians falling all over themselves to praise this sick spectacle.

And let's not forget that New Yorkers elected—by a landslide—the openly Marxist, treasonous and abortion-mongering, occultic Hillary to a Senate seat. All while fully knowing what she was all about.

So are we all innocent here in New York? Are we innocent with our porno, drugs, filthy Jay Leno monologues, our idolatry, materialism and consumerism? Innocent when Republican Governor George Pataki stands next to the blood-stained dictator of Communist China as he rings the opening bell for the stock market on Wall Street?...

Can the remnant in America help but honestly ask themselves: Is this the fulfillment of Revelation chapters 17 and 18 (Mystery Babylon) or has God raised up Shiite Islam as a sword against America?

These guys should apologize to their fellow Americans, but first they should apologize to God. Since WND chooses to end the piece with a plug for my friend Hugh Hewitt's book, implicating Hugh in the article's sentiment, I've asked Hugh for a response. I hope he will cancel his Worldnet Daily column. Free speech is essential as government policy, but there are some people, as Ramesh Ponnuru puts it in this excellent column, whom civilized people should not let into our houses. Not only LoBaido but the editors who published him should be shunned. [Posted 9/15.]

[OWK]

You two should get an apartment and buy furniture.

Which one is Felix, and which one is Oscar?

[Southern Federalist]

This is why I don't usually do religion on FR.

God judges individuals and nations and rules all things. I don't deny that. I believe it.

I do deny that he has told Mr. LoBaido about the detail of his judgments, or any of the posters on this thread who like this sort of thing. The fact that someone matches an event with a Bible verse does not mean that they have found "the Biblical answer."

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Romans 11:33-35.

I only got on this thread because I believe in judgment. Now on the Last Day God won't say: "So why didn't you speak up when those idiots were calling me a demon?"

Having testified, I am going to bed.

[Campion]

Hey Hank, if I tell you I think you're full of it, is that "vituperative rather than cogent"?

The problem here is that you all believe you are dealing others who have the same values as you. These "God's judgement" folks do not have the same values as we do.

See how cogent I can be: I'll begin by agreeing with you!

They have absolutely no concern with human suffering, in fact, they believe that most human beings are going to suffer unimaginable torment forever, and are quite happy about it.

I'm not going to claim to speak for RnMomof7. She doesn't speak for me, in fact (if I recall correctly), I don't believe she considers me a Christian at all. So these are my own opinions only.

That having been said, I believe nothing remotely like this. I don't know whether "most people" are going to suffer eternal hellfire, and I am most certainly not "happy" about it, because God isn't "happy about it": Scripture says in several places that God would rather the sinner repent and live.

As to being indifferent to human suffering, I'm so "indifferent to human suffering" that I believe that in offering my suffering, and that of my brothers and sisters, up to God in love and trust I image my crucified God in an act that is literally sacred. Sound like "indifference" to you?

They do not believe that causing human suffering and pain and death is evil.

I assume you mean the suffering of innocent humans? In that case, this statement is simply a lie.

They believe the evil of any act depends on who does it. For example, they do not believe the fact that thousands of human beings suffered terror, and who knows how much pain, and then died in the planes and the WTC was evil in itself.

Total rot, Hank.

Here, let me clarify my mental sickness and Taliban-like tendencies for you and OWK:

1. God does not cause (moral) evil. He is never the author of sin. Never.
2. The acts of 9/11 were grave moral evils. Therefore, God did not cause them.
3. God permitted the acts of 9/11. How do we know this? Because nothing happens that God does not either ordain or at least permit. Since it happened, and God did not ordain it, he permitted it.
4. Why did God permit the acts of 9/11? I don't know, but I do know that he intends to bring a greater good out of great evil. Warning the United States that its sins, as a nation, are heaped-up kindling waiting for a match might well be that greater good.
5. Does that mean that God used Osama bin Laden as an instrument? Sure does. He also used the Assyrians and Babylonians as an instrument in the OT. A strong case can be made that the Roman conquest of Jerusalem in AD 70 is described in similar terms in the NT.
6. Does that mean that what bin Laden did was right? Of course not! God permits evil, and uses it to accomplish good. That doesn't mean it's ever okay to work evil.
7. Do the innocent suffer for the sins of the guilty? Yep, sure do. Ever heard of a crucified Jewish carpenter named Jesus of Nazareth?
8. But isn't that unjust? Yes, it may sometimes appear that way. But in the long run, I believe we will see that it is not only perfectly just, but perfectly merciful.

You and OWK may now proceed to denounce me as sick, mentally unstable, un-American, and the moral equivalent of the Taliban. Frankly, if that's the most coherent response you can muster, I'll feel pretty secure in my beliefs.

[skeeter]

I'm still trying to figure out why an atheist would care so passionately about what a christian thinks regarding the motives of a God he doesn't believe exists.

[OWK]

We are always making God our accomplice, that so we may legalize our own iniquities.
- Henri Frederic Amiel

[Byron_the_Aussie]

..but some of the anti-religious bigotry here hits a new low...

Oh.

You haven't heard?

Apparently the Ayn Rand Institute's issuing a new medal, for the thousandth Christian driven off Free Republic. OWK's posse are crawling over each other to win that one.

[drlevy88]

Why do you take a prophecy addressed specifically to Old Testament Israel and treat it as though it was talking to everybody?

[woofie]

I stay out of the religion section,but I know enough about it all to know that the Book of Job is a refutation of those who think God rewards those or hurts others based on merit

[drlevy88]

Tell me another one. Boy you're feeble tonight.

[sinkspur]

God DOES judge the nations! Assuming for a moment that this is true, what does that mean?

You assert that something is true, then you ask me what it means?

What does it mean to you?

BTW, God judges individuals, and individuals bring judgement on themselves by their actions.

[RnMomof7]

You two should get an apartment and buy furniture

LOL....but not in NY city...

[joathome]

Very good post, Campion. No, you are not sick.

[Byron_the_Aussie]

...which one is Felix, and which one is Oscar?...

I think he envisioned Ellen and Anne, mate.

[spoosman]

People in America need to repent. They ought to fry the rear ends of those responsible, but America needs to repent. The thing I struggle with is if foreigners landed in America, you know the homos and the liberals and the abortionists will run and hide, while all the red zone folks will fight. But who will I be fighting for? Let's say I win, guess what? The same pieces of excrement the author alludes to come out from hiding and start pecking away with the same sick agenda they had before the war. So who and what am I fighting for? Now that I think of it, if I am fighting for America, exactly what is it I am fighting for? What is America? Is it even worth protecting? Why the heck should I have to shoulder a weapon? So two homosexuals can have anal sex on MTV? Will I kill other people so the ACLU can continue to tear down the faith I believe in?

I think we need to split in half. Let the anti Christ freaks fight for themselves. I want to be in a country that is worth fighting for. I want to pick up a gun and kill an enemy because I know I have a fellow citizen who is worthy of my blood, should it be spilled.

[mustapha mond]

On Abortion: Those who engage in it and support and do not repent will not be known by God.

Our nation supports this abomination. This cannot help our case.

Concerning Reagan: Sen Helms did help but without the moral climate created by Falwells' Moral Majority Reagan could not have beat BUSH I in the 1980 primary.

Concerning Neo Cons. I did not mean it as an insult, your lack of basic knowledge about the history of the conservative movement caused me to jump to thatconclusion. Sorry about that.-MM

[Gumption]

More like Oscar and Blanch.

[OWK]

I think he envisioned Ellen and Anne, mate.

Funny how homosexuals keep popping into your mind.

You might want to look into that....

Mate.

[Primo]

Funny how Mao Tse Tung (atheistic butcher of millions) lived a life of plenty and died at a ripe comfortable old age. And the chaplain of the New York City fire department was crushed unrecognizable by tons of concrete falling from the sky. Why don't these "God's judgement" people have an answer for that?

I posted this on another thread but it suits your question here.

Mother Theresa was once asked why it is that the innocent people suffer and die in cases like these and nothing happens tothe bad people. Her reply was that these innocent people are ready to go (to heaven) and the bad people are not. That God was giving them time to change their ways.

Also remember that the people who died are in a better place (heaven) so this was not a punishment for them but a reward!

[NeoCaveman]

Bygones

Although I think a beloved governor of the largest state in the Union could beat Bush 1, who couldn't even win a Senate Seat in TX.

And abortion is a mortal sin, of course.

I just don't see BinLadin as an avenging angel, and I know that you do not either. Peace.

[PhilipFreneau]

What do you make of this...
Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
Revelation 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
. . .
Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
. . .
Revelation 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
Revelation 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Revelation 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Revelation 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
Revelation 18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
Revelation 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
Revelation 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
Revelation 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
Revelation 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Revelation 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
Revelation 18:12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
Revelation 18:13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
Revelation 18:14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
Revelation 18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
Revelation 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
Revelation 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
Revelation 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
Revelation 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
Revelation 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
. . .
Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Revelation 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

No offense intended, but those passages strike some familiar chords. For years - decades - I believed (and said so many times) that Babylon the Great was either Wall Street or Hollywood (leaning toward Hollywood); and I anticipated an earthquake, asteroid, ... something, would lay one of them waste. I do, indeed, view the WTC attack as a warning by God for this nation to repent.

Now, before anyone goes off the deep end, I would request you read some of my past posts on FR. I am a devout patriot, I served my country during war time, and I revere the Constitution of the United States and this nation. However, I also know that God is not mocked. Don't believe for a minute that God will not punish this nation if it does return to Him.