Posted on 05/23/2024 10:32:50 PM PDT by The Old Hoosier
In the corporate world you would call it advertising.
As a private citizen a personal view or opinion if it's not listing mere facts.
The US censoring ~40 Russian media outlets, most Russian government sites, self censoring in social media, etc. does not need to worry about Russian propaganda.
You're not getting much Russian propaganda. You have to literally search for it and get around censors. But you are getting a good dose from our own government.
Did you call the following “propaganda?” when these stories were hot?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61285833 (imaginary Ghost of Kiev)
https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/25/europe/ukraine-russia-snake-island-attack-intl-hnk-ml/index.html (The “F-off” story from Snake Island)
https://www.newsweek.com/2023/05/05/read-leaked-secret-intelligence-documents-ukraine-vladimir-putin-1794656.html#slideshow/ (imaginary casualties while our own government knows the truth but won't tell folks)
https://theintercept.com/2022/02/24/ukraine-facebook-azov-battalion-russia/ (a little praise for neo-Nazi’s isn't so bad as long as it's for the right cause)
Colloquially, people tend to use the term “propaganda” liberally for any argument or even mere statement of fact which may be derogatory regards ones own beliefs, feelings, opinions.
Anything we don't like we label with the pejorative “propaganda.”
We used two atomic bombs on Japan.
The proper lesson to draw is: Do not attack us. You don’t know what crazy weapons we have in skunk works.
Then after WWII we helped Japan become a prosperous, democratic state. Ditto Germany and Italy after WWII. Also Taiwan and South Korea, although it took them a but longer to get with the program. Now we are helping to turn the countries of eastern Europe in prosperous and democratic states.
Do you think this is lost on the people of Ukraine. They can see the pessimism of Russia and the optimism of Poland.
As to corruption, no, I do not like what the Democrats are doing to Trump. But, they’re didn’t throw him off a skyscraper, or kill him with polonium 220, or imprison him and then beat him to death.
Nor did we starve 4 million people to death during the 1930s because they were Ukrainian, kill a total of 60 million of our people during the 20th Century, join with Hitler in dividing up eastern Europe, or send the tanks into Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Poland and Romania during the Cold War when those countries tried to be independent, nor did we send 10 million people into slave labor camps collectively known as the Gulag.
Your boy says the fall of communism was the worst tragedy of the 20th Century. In Great Falls, Montana, where I was when the American ICBMs were taken off alert, we had a victory parade. We had lived through the Cold War, and we were neither red nor dead. We were alive and free. We celebrated our country’s greatest victory. A victory secured not by war, but by remaining vigilant over three generations. My father, myself and my son all took our turns on the ramparts.
A free country will grow in all manner of ways, including in military power and the economy needed to sustain that military power. We can deal with inevitable losses, and individuals who succumb to corruption and even to evil. Countries based on subjugation cannot keep up with us and, if they try, they will collapse.
You collapsed recently. You are about to collapse again. Your boy believed he could conquer Ukraine in three days. Instead he wound up in a war of attrition that, over time, is depleting his stockpiles of weapons and military-age men.
Then after WWII we helped Japan become a prosperous, democratic state.
The Duchy of Grand Fenwick took note of that.
The difference is that many Russians and Putin have a very distinct world view, as seen with tuckers interview of Putin
They certainly do, and it's not at all compatible with peaceful co-existence with their neighbors. Like Iraq and the rest of Islam, their culture isn't compatible liberal democracy. They will make war on the West regardless of what we do, because that's what they do; just read their political guidestars, Dugin and Ilyin, to see.
"Instances of Use of United States Armed Forces Abroad, 1798-2023"
Congressional Research Service
R42738
Your Congressional Research Service (CRS) list of "251 military operations since 1991" includes many of the same operation listed multiple times plus some very minor events.
This version of your list on Wikipedia eliminates the duplicates and minor items, thus reducing your 251 to "only" 95 events.
So I worked the Wiki-list instead and here's what I found out:
= 40 total countries
US Military Operations Since 1991 -- regardless of size
Reasons for Action Years of Presidency:------> | GHW Bush** 1991-'92 | WJ Clinton 1993-2000 | GW Bush 2001-'08 | BH Obama 2009-'16 | DJ Trump*** 2017-2020 | JR Biden 2021-'24 | Totals 1991 - 2023 |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Military boots-ground | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 7 |
War on Terror (against non-state actors) | 0 | 3 | 10 | 8 | 1 | 4 | 26 |
Air + No Fly (against states) | 1 | 5 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 10 |
Drones (non-state actors) | 0 | 0 | 0 | 6 | 0 | 1 | 7 |
Naval Ops | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 5 |
subtotals: | |||||||
Military Operations | 3 | 11 | 13 | 17 | 4 | 7 | 55 |
*** | |||||||
Humanitarian Relief | 3 | 0 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 7 |
Civil Unrest Evacuations | 1 | 9 | 2 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 16 |
Tranining & Logistical Support | 1 | 1 | 3 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 9 |
Exercise & Show of Force | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 3 |
UN Peacekeeper Support | 0 | 4 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 5 |
subtotals: | |||||||
Humanitarian &Peacekeeping | 6 | 15 | 9 | 10 | 0 | 0 | 40 |
*** | |||||||
Totals all Categories | 9 | 26 | 22 | 27 | 4 | 7 | 95 |
**Since we start in 1991, this only shows two years of GHW Bush's presidency.
*** DJ Trump the Congressional Report of 251 events multiplies Trump's operations -- to over 70 -- by including many minor & normal military exercises & rotations.
So I think the Wikipedia list more accurately illustrates actual engagements.
Here's an example from the CRS report, of a Trump activity, correctly not included in the Wiki-listing:
"Europe. On September 24, 2020, the Army announced the Fall 2020 rotation to Europe of the 1st Armored Brigade Combat Team, 1st Cavalry Division, stationed at Fort Hood, Texas, to replace the 2nd Armored Brigade Combat Team, 3rd Infantry Division in support of Operation Atlantic Resolve. 126"
Please don’t ping me. Thank You.
Excellent fisk, BroJoeK !!
Sure, it's no problem for me.
But you seemed very engaged here, so what suddenly is your problem?
Using Wikipedia in lieu of a Congressional document with the DoD as the original source regarding DoD operations, because Wikipedia leaves out (omits) more and gives a better “feel good” answer, probably isn’t the most intelligent or honest thing to do.
That said, even “humanitarian operations” can be armed conflicts where bullets fly back and fourth. Humanitarian operation: https://www.britannica.com/event/Somalia-intervention
Minor events need excluded... By who’s definition minor? Yours, or the guy on the receiving end of what is supposed to be intimidation / treats, or just a the “few” people that were killed, or us arming a third party to do the killing for us? Games with definitions show a deliberate attempt at being insincere in this debate. How about using a common definition, i.e. same definition throughout as that Congressional document does?
I get that you and others want to defend our nation, you self identify as American and as a more nationalist minded person, derive part of your self identity from that, especially for most who ever served in the military. However, you need to “attempt” to stay objective.
We have become quick to use force to further our policies, whatever they may be. It works for us.
There was and still mostly is no competition. We’re the only worlds super-power albeit China (PRC) is crawling up our back today.
We act with impunity since we are so big militarily, with our IC, economy, industry, in political influence, with allies we can round up around any cause (politically and economically tied to us) as well as being insulated by an Atlantic, Pacific and allies (both in Europe and Asia) that act as a buffer between us and threats. This has caused us to become quick to use force and also use force where it is very questionable. It’s quick, easy, often cheap (in comparison), can show “decisive action” by some political figure that can grandstand, and there are almost no repercussions for us.
So you get this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD4kFxyHALo He’s recommending invading, and then backed off to recommend attacking a neighbor, NAFTA member, which poses zero true national security threat. Of course he used the words “WMD, terrorists, national security” in his statements...
Pacifism nor total isolationism are realistic. War is a reality. But using military force for mere economic and/or political gain, in some cases where we are disposing of a democracy and installing a dictator (Chile: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat), or securing a dictator/kingdom (Saudi Arabia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabian_National_Guard We basically built the Saudi National Guard which is a Praetorian Guard for the royal family/king) at the expense to democracy, freedom, human rights is hardly being a knight in shining silver armor. We throw these terms “democracy, human rights, sovereignty even terrorism and WMD” around liberally, but they have become vapid slogans for what are usually politically and economically motivated military campaigns.
Never were we perfect angels (example Chile provided above), but we were generally on the right side of things and most of our military interventions in the Cold War were justifiable claiming self defense. Not the case today. Post Cold War (1991) we began sliding in a very bad direction and that became even worse post 9-11 in many respects, especially in how we operate: massive use of mercenary armies, torture, kidnapping, assignations, significantly side stepping the US Constitution, and today with mass censorship and government sponsored propaganda as well as an intel service partially aimed inward. This is a very bad trend not only in our foreign policy and in how we use our military, but also domestic where today you have an IC that does resemble the Stasi/KGB: mass surveillance, use of FISA powers against political opponents, eliminating the leadership of opposition groups that would be a problem (J6). Today people like you want to pretend we’re so different than the Russians, when in reality you have “political prisoners” rotting away after they were brought before a kangaroo court.
To a Libyan, Iraqi or Syrian, we are no liberators. We do not bring democracy, human rights, and we sure as hell do not respect their sovereignty. We’re just another flag trying to plant itself on their soil so we can pump oil and gas.
“To a Libyan, Iraqi or Syrian, we are no liberators. We do not bring democracy, human rights, and we sure as hell do not respect their sovereignty. We’re just another flag trying to plant itself on their soil so we can pump oil and gas.”
^
Obama bombed more countries than any other President since WWII.
Today, our Strategic Petroleum Reserves are depleted. Nothing moves without oil.
Sorry it’s taken me so long to respond back to you. Thank you for your kind words regarding my son. The hard part for me as his mother, was that he was living in Indiana while he was going through this, and I live in the middle of New York State. I drove out to stay with him as often as I could, but I’m grateful that his then girlfriend was with him through the whole experience, and he wasn’t alone. They’ve since gone their separate ways, but remain friends, and speak often. My son has since moved back here. It doesn’t matter how old your kids are, you never stop worrying about them.
Did you suffer any side effects with the radiation? I have a friend whose husband was diagnosed 7 or 8 years ago with cancer of the pharynx and larynx. He had extensive radiation treatments. The radiation destroyed his salivary glands, and so he has no saliva, and has to make sure he drinks plenty of liquids when he eats. The doctors tried medication to help him, but none of it worked. The cancer he had is rare...not prevalent in this country, and his prognosis was not good at the time, but thankfully, he’s been cancer free for well over 5 years now.
I think I told you my father was born in Holland in 1904, and came here with his family in 1913. My grandmother died of TB in 1920. I always wondered if she might have contracted it on the ship they came to the U.S. on, but of course would never be able to prove it. And my grandmother on my mother’s side went back to Canada when she got sick. She died on the operating table during gall bladder surgery in 1946, the year before I was born. I had to have my gall bladder out in 2015, and they couldn’t do it laparoscopically, so you know her death while undergoing the same surgery, was on my own mind at the time. I didn’t say anything about it to my surgeon until afterward. John Murtha who was a Democrat Rep. from Pennsylvania underwent gall bladder surgery at Bethesda Naval Hospital the end of January 2010, and died of complications 11 days later. He had laparoscopic surgery, and they somehow damaged his large intestine during the procedure, and developed an infection. Sadly, even with modern surgery methods, these type of incidents still occur.
Thank you for clearing up the birthday question. I told my oldest son over the phone on Sunday, that I had asked you about it, and read what you said in reply. I asked him if he knew that at the time, but he said he didn’t question it, or Matin, and figured it was a German custom as Martin had said.
It’s been a pleasure corresponding with you. I hope you continue in good health, and I will keep you in my prayers.
Naw... it was simply quicker and easier to deal with the abbreviated list of 95 items than with all 251.
You can be certain that every major item from the 251 made the 95 list, but it leaves out the many duplicates and minor actions such as the example I cited in #166 above -- a military unit rotating to replace one already on station.
Your list of 251 would take much longer to go through, sort out, summarize & classify each action to be certain of an "apples to apples" comparison.
And I'm certain the results will be roughly the same.
There were a small number of major events, many more related to the War on Terror and many more than that were simply humanitarian, logistical and training exercises.
Red6: "That said, even “humanitarian operations” can be armed conflicts where bullets fly back and fourth. Humanitarian operation:
Somalia Intervention - military operation [1992-1993]
I classified Somalia as a military operation, not as humanitarian, logistical or civil disturbance.
Red6: "Minor events need excluded...
By who’s definition minor?
Yours, or the guy on the receiving end of what is supposed to be intimidation / treats, or just a the “few” people that were killed, or us arming a third party to do the killing for us?
Games with definitions show a deliberate attempt at being insincere in this debate.
How about using a common definition, i.e. same definition throughout as that Congressional document does?"
The example I cited in #166 is a "minor event" and we can repeat it here:
"Europe. On September 24, 2020, the Army announced the Fall 2020 rotation to Europe of the 1st Armored Brigade Combat Team, 1st Cavalry Division, stationed at Fort Hood, Texas, to replace the 2nd Armored Brigade Combat Team, 3rd Infantry Division in support of Operation Atlantic Resolve. 126""In addition to such minor events there were many duplications of the same event listed in your CRS report of 251.
Red6: "I get that you and others want to defend our nation, you self identify as American and as a more nationalist minded person, derive part of your self identity from that, especially for most who ever served in the military.
However, you need to “attempt” to stay objective."
Then you are just as delusional in saying I "self-identify" as American, as delusional as people who claim to be "assigned a gender" at birth.
We don't "self-identify" our citizenship and we aren't "assigned" our gender.
We are what we were born to be.
There is no "objective" in this, and no alternative point of view.
I'm here to defend the USA wherever that's possible -- and, sadly, it isn't always possible -- but if there's a good honest case to be made, I'll certainly make it without regard to what's supposedly "objective" or not.
Red6: "We have become quick to use force to further our policies, whatever they may be.
It works for us.
There was and still mostly is no competition.
We’re the only worlds super-power albeit China (PRC) is crawling up our back today."
Your word, "quick" is a matter of definition and perspective -- we certainly were not "quick" to enter either the First World War (32 months) or the Second World War (27 months).
In Korea, in 1950 it took us about a month to begin responding to the NoKo's invasion, but in Vietnam we were many years in relatively minor buildup of forces to oppose the invading Northern troops.
The First Gulf War in 1991 took six months of preparations.
The Second Gulf War in 2003 was 18 months after 9/11/2001 and six months after Congress authorized it.
The US invasion of Afghanistan was pretty quick -- only a month after September 11, 2001.
In Bosnia, Kosovo and Libya we can easily argue if the US was too quick or too slow to respond.
But the key debate in all these examples is not whether we were "too quick" or "too slow", but rather did we have the right ideas going in as to what our objectives were, how we defined victory and how exactly we intended to accomplish it?
Red6: "We act with impunity since we are so big militarily, with our IC, economy, industry, in political influence, with allies we can round up around any cause (politically and economically tied to us) as well as being insulated by an Atlantic, Pacific and allies (both in Europe and Asia) that act as a buffer between us and threats.
This has caused us to become quick to use force and also use force where it is very questionable.
It’s quick, easy, often cheap (in comparison), can show “decisive action” by some political figure that can grandstand, and there are almost no repercussions for us."
What? Repercussions??
And there's that word "quick" again!
Every war has repercussions at home and abroad.
Repercussions -- setting aside the dreadful costs in American blood and treasure --
So, we are not the dominant power, or the word's hegemon, we are simply the first among several others roughly equal.
We don't boss them around, instead, we make deals using the Art of the Deal, we keep our promises and we stand firm with our friends against the world's bad actors & Little Hitler Wannabees.
That's what it's all about and the rest is just a lot of noise & nonsense.
Red6: "So you get this: Sen. Graham Calls for military action on drugs in Mexico
He’s recommending invading, and then backed off to recommend attacking a neighbor, NAFTA member, which poses zero true national security threat.
Of course he used the words “WMD, terrorists, national security” in his statements..."
I can't defend Biden or Graham and won't try to figure out what was really being suggested in your link.
For certain it results from weak leadership in the White House.
Red6: "Pacifism nor total isolationism are realistic.
War is a reality.
But using military force for mere economic and/or political gain, in some cases where we are disposing of a democracy and installing a dictator (Chile:..."
Map of Democracy Index
shades of blue = democratic, shades of red/brown = authoritarian
Today Chile is ranked as a "flawed democracy" slightly better than the USA which is slightly better than Argentina, also a "flawed democracy".
Both seem now to have weathered threats of communist/socialist revolutions and have embraced more conservative policies.
Today it's impossible to say how much the US government helped them along the way, but I'd hope we had nudged them a little bit here and there in the right direction.
Red6: "We throw these terms “democracy, human rights, sovereignty even terrorism and WMD” around liberally, but they have become vapid slogans for what are usually politically and economically motivated military campaigns."
I'm sorry but your claims here are just nonsense words, meaningless without specifics.
Of course, every human action is motivated by many factors, including economic and political considerations.
However, one of Donald Trump's major criticisms of Sonny Bush is that he invaded Iraq to liberate them from Saddam and WMDs but never made Iraq pay for our services with their oil.
According to Trump, we should not have invaded in the first place, but if we did then we should have at least taken Iraq's oil as payment, but we didn't.
Trump's outlook is very different from Sonny Bush's, and I think Trump's the better one.
Ukraine is a very different matter, I think.
Red6: "Never were we perfect angels (example Chile provided above), but we were generally on the right side of things and most of our military interventions in the Cold War were justifiable claiming self defense.
Not the case today.
Post Cold War (1991) we began sliding in a very bad direction and that became even worse post 9-11 in many respects, especially in how we operate: massive use of mercenary armies, torture, kidnapping, assignations, significantly side stepping the US Constitution, and today with mass censorship and government sponsored propaganda as well as an intel service partially aimed inward. This is a very bad trend not only in our foreign policy and in how we use our military, but also domestic where today you have an IC that does resemble the Stasi/KGB: mass surveillance, use of FISA powers against political opponents, eliminating the leadership of opposition groups that would be a problem (J6).
Today people like you want to pretend we’re so different than the Russians, when in reality you have “political prisoners” rotting away after they were brought before a kangaroo court."
Sadly, some of your words are more true than they should be, but some are pure Russian anti-American propaganda nonsense, mischaracterized and exaggerated beyond reality.
And, to the degree that what you've laid out is true, I think we will have an opportunity in November to clean house and clean our slates of corrupt elected officials and corrupted Deep State bureaucrats.
I don't think this situation is beyond repair or redemption, but I do think Trump & Republicans need to win big time in November.
Red6: "To a Libyan, Iraqi or Syrian, we are no liberators.
We do not bring democracy, human rights, and we sure as hell do not respect their sovereignty.
We’re just another flag trying to plant itself on their soil so we can pump oil and gas."
Here you sound like a loyal Russian defender of your motherland and opponent of the American "hegemons".
Of course, your words here are pure nonsense, since we aren't pumping any oil or gas from Iraq, Syria or Libya.
What we did do, for better or for worse, was defeat Saddam (Bush), destroy ISIS (Trump) and help overthrow Gaddafi in Libya (Hillary).
Trump has promised we won't be doing much more of that kind of stuff.
Maybe he's right, we'll see what happens.
I can all to easily imagine analysts in Moscow poring over FR posts like Red6’s to evaluate the effectiveness of their influence campaigns.
Red6 may have to step up his/their game.
Yes indeedy.
Hello Ma’am,
thank you very much for your kindly response, and for telling me so much about you and your dear ones :-)
Yes, in such grave situtaions it is so utterly important to have one’s family for help.
Friends come and go, but kinship lasts forever - thus I think it’s so important to have a good relationship among one’s family.
After all, for the most part of human history, the family or the clan were the only human beings one could turn to in times of need :-)
So good that your son has you, and that he had his ex-girlfriend :-)
And with the radiation: yes, I had side effects, for instance, being always very tired and sometimes being forgetful (although my memory is normally quite good), as well as problems with the digestion - stomach andd intestines are relatively sensitive to radiation, whereas the liver resists it rather well.
Your poor friend has been hit terribly, and I am deeply sorry to read about the side effects. At least the treatment was able to save his life, thank God.
Maybe his treatment was long ago, since generally, the rayguns used for the therapy have massively improved in accuracy in the last decades. New and better computers also did their share to decrease the side effects of radiation.
Yes, so much has increased in medicine over the decades...I still remember seeing polio victims when I was a child in the Seventies. Even keyhole surgery, as popular as it is today, can never be entirely without a risk - just as any other surgery.
One of the latest fashions over here is, in an operation, to sew the blood vessels shut as soon as the incision is made. This way, the patient normally needs no transfusion and the surgeon can see more clearly.
I did not need a blood transfusion, although I had to undergo a laparotomy (the tumor being quite big), and the whole operation took nearly five hours. Still, afterwards, I felt relatively well. It felt as if God had been with me the whole time :-)
Yes, and I do appreciate it so much that you are including me in your prayers. Please permit me to include you and your dear ones in mine, too.
All the best,
Menes
Sure-
Yes,
You stated: “Nothing moves without oil.”
And there are only two nations in the world that control all of this, the US and Russia.
All other nations are operating on the ground that in the background is controlled either by the US or Russia. Example: Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, Jordan belong to the US; Venezuela, Iran, Syria, Libya belong to Russia.
Even if it’s Shell, BP, Agrip, Fina, or Total etc. they are operating in an area where the true person in control is the US or Russia.
The division of control is about 2/3rds of the world is under our control, and 1/3rd under Russian control.
However, we have been trying very hard to gain a foothold in those areas that are in the Russian sphere of influence, in particular Syria, Libya, Venezuela, and Iraq (once was more aligned with Russia than us).
Russia is a “has-been” power. There is no Soviet Union nor Warsaw pact, albeit out of necessity Russia is aligning itself with the PRC/China today.
Russia is weak in conventional terms and we are going after them all while we pretend this is about “WMD, democracy, human rights, terrorism, sovereignty” and as if we are the ones defending even though we attacked and invaded Syria (WMD and human rights), invaded Iraq (WMD and terrorism), attacked Libya (human rights), attempted a coups in Venezuela (democracy and human rights) which failed and where we got caught red handed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gideon_(2020)
I wonder, since we care so much about human rights and democracy, when will we sever ties or pressure Saudi Arabia or Jordan to reform? When will we cut economic ties to the PRC which is probably one of the worst when it comes to democracy and human rights? “Democracy, human rights, WMD, sovereignty, terrorism” are idiot slogans for the masses to justify military interventions that are most often for economic and political gain and where there is zero self-defense/national security argument for us.
Iraq: oil producer, Russian aligned, invaded: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War
Syria: oil producer, Russian formal ally, invaded: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_intervention_in_the_Syrian_civil_war
Libya: oil producer, Russian aligned, attacked: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya
Venezuela: oil producer, Russian aligned, several coups attempts, the last one in 2020: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gideon_(2020)
Sorry that my answer is short to you. I’m not trying to be an @ss, but I don’t want to waste my time.
I got it, you were born with a genetic link to be an American, there is an American gene so it’s biological, not an identity. It also makes you superior and always right.
I’m sure it’s just all coincidental that all the struggles are in countries that have a significant economic value to us, that once were Russian allies or aligned, where we are invading their space.
I got it, “democracy, human rights, sovereignty, terrorism, WMD.”
Knight in shining silver armor.
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