Posted on 04/06/2024 1:01:40 AM PDT by McGruff
As Russia steps up airstrikes and once again advances on the battlefield in Ukraine more than two years into its bloody invasion, there is no end to the fighting in sight. And President Volodymyr Zelensky’s options for what to do next — much less how to win the war — range from bad to worse.
Zelensky has said Ukraine will accept nothing less than the return of all its territory, including land that Russia has controlled since 2014. But with the battle lines changing little in the last year, militarily retaking the swaths of east and south Ukraine that Russia now occupies — about 20 percent of the country — appears increasingly unlikely.
Negotiating with Russian President Vladimir Putin to end the war — something Zelensky has rejected as long as Russian troops remain on Ukrainian land — is politically toxic.
(Excerpt) Read more at msn.com ...
Expect no less from you
That is another lie.
We opened the labs starting under Obama:
https://www.pixstory.com/story/barack-obama-spearheaded-setting-up-of-dangerous-bio-weapon-lab-in-ukraine/91009
According to sources, former President Barack Obama pushed for a deal in Ukraine to create bio-weapon facilities that process "particularly hazardous germs."
Opind reported that this comes only days after the Biden administration told the US Senate that it is concerned about biological research centres falling under Russian control as a result of the escalating fighting in Eastern Europe.
According to the newest claims, Washington collaborated with Kiev on deadly germs in labs authorised by former US President Barack Obama. The now-deleted paper titled "Biolab Opens in Ukraine" describes how Obama helped negotiate an agreement to create a level-3 biosafety lab in the Ukrainian city of Odessa while serving as an Illinois Senator.
Former Senator Dick Lugar joined forces with Senator Barack Obama to build a cooperation with Ukrainian officials, according to the storey. According to the report, Lugar and Obama also assisted in the coordination of efforts between US and Ukrainian researchers to study and prevent avian flu.
You are OK.
Claims? “According to sources”
Like yacht story or latest mansion story. Www. Pixstor.com
Got it
Sources and claims say you are Russian, guess it’s true
So there were no bio labs built by Russians in Ukraine? And of course none in Russia right?
Should Russia invade itself to get rid of the labs there?
Good for me not for thee
This idea that they were Soviet labs previous is nonsense. Even if they were should have been shutdown years earlier.
There isn't anything despicable thing the Obama or Biden regime or Deep State does that scum like you won't defend.
You saying it’s not arguable is not proof and if there were? Does Russia run bio
Labs, does Germany
But that is justification to invade and destroy
Russian mir
Ukraine never had any intentions of attacking Russia
Absolutely correct.
Ukraine had intentions of attacking the Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic which had declared independence in 2014 and, in 2022 had recently been recognized by Russia, and each of which had entered into a mutual defense agreement with Russia. Nulandia did not expect to incite a Russian Special Military Operation, but they did. FAFO. Nulandia is currently being reeducated about poking the bear.
You all love to talk about coups, like Russia has never been involved in supporting state actors and elections to place people in power with Russia’s interests in mind.
The little green men involved in the 2014 actions in those regions was Russia doing exactly that.
So are Russia’s “interests” superior to all?
The actions by Russia in 2014 are no different than 2022, just done under a lie of a organic action, something they have now admitted they organized, implemented, and used their own people to accomplish, so it was essentially a coup.
But coups are bad right?
How many wars has Putin started? How many peace agreements has he made then broken?
Why would we have trusted him?
Right now, the Ukrainians are an extinct people. That’s from how we went about trying contain Putin. The Ukrainians, because they eliminated the most productive ages from their country have joined the Yazidis in history as to having been eliminated. That’s what we got from how we did things.
By allowing Putin to protect his people, as he claimed, it would have forced him to either keep his word or a third world war, where all of the resources of the West could have been used to defeat him and remove him. Possibly without having the Ukrainians join the Yazidis in the process.
[blitz128 #68] You all love to talk about coups, like Russia has never been involved in supporting state actors and elections to place people in power with Russia’s interests in mind.
You seem confused, as if my post #67 said something about coups. It didn't.
[blitz128 #68] The little green men involved in the 2014 actions in those regions was Russia doing exactly that.
My post said nothing about coups or little green men.
[blitz128 #68] So are Russia’s “interests” superior to all?
My post did not address Russia's interests or their superiority. Russia has the most formidible armed forces in the area. I do not care about Russia's interests vs. Ukraine's interests. If Ukraine finds it in their interest to wage a military conflict against Russia, I respect their opinion and say let them have at it.
[blitz128 #68] The actions by Russia in 2014 are no different than 2022, just done under a lie of a organic action, something they have now admitted they organized, implemented, and used their own people to accomplish, so it was essentially a coup.
A coup is the overthrow of a government. Russia did not overthrow the government of Ukraine in 2014. Nobody overthrew the government of Ukraine in 2022.
Crimea declared its independence in 2014 and was annexed by Russia upon its request. DPR and LPR declared independence in 2014. They were recognized by some countries, but not Russia, prior to 2022. Russia gave recognition in 2022. Russia entered into a mutual defense agreement with DPR, and with LPR in 2022. Both DPR and LPR had functioning governments from 2014 to 2022. In 2022, Russia annexed both upon their requests.
Ukraine has not governed Crimea since 2014.
The coup in 2014 involved the U.S. State Department, the CIA and the overthrow of the government of Ukraine, creating Nulandia. Neither Crimea, DPR, nor LPR owed any allegiance to Nulandia.
What government was overthrown in 2022?
This is fun, for clarity I am pasting your response to make it easier to follow, my response will follow yours
With no way out of a worsening war, Zelensky’s options look bad or worse
4/7/2024, 8:54:54 PM · 71 of 71
woodpusher to blitz128
[woodpusher #67] Ukraine had intentions of attacking the Donetsk People’s Republic and the Luhansk People’s Republic which had declared independence in 2014 and, in 2022 had recently been recognized by Russia, and each of which had entered into a mutual defense agreement with Russia. Nulandia did not expect to incite a Russian Special Military Operation, but they did. FAFO. Nulandia is currently being reeducated about poking the bear.
[blitz128 #68] You all love to talk about coups, like Russia has never been involved in supporting state actors and elections to place people in power with Russia’s interests in mind.
You seem confused, as if my post #67 said something about coups. It didn’t.
[blitz128 #68] The little green men involved in the 2014 actions in those regions was Russia doing exactly that.
My post said nothing about coups or little green men.
[blitz128 #68] So are Russia’s “interests” superior to all?
My post did not address Russia’s interests or their superiority. Russia has the most formidible armed forces in the area. I do not care about Russia’s interests vs. Ukraine’s interests. If Ukraine finds it in their interest to wage a military conflict against Russia, I respect their opinion and say let them have at it.
[blitz128 #68] The actions by Russia in 2014 are no different than 2022, just done under a lie of a organic action, something they have now admitted they organized, implemented, and used their own people to accomplish, so it was essentially a coup.
A coup is the overthrow of a government. Russia did not overthrow the government of Ukraine in 2014. Nobody overthrew the government of Ukraine in 2022.
Crimea declared its independence in 2014 and was annexed by Russia upon its request. DPR and LPR declared independence in 2014. They were recognized by some countries, but not Russia, prior to 2022. Russia gave recognition in 2022. Russia entered into a mutual defense agreement with DPR, and with LPR in 2022. Both DPR and LPR had functioning governments from 2014 to 2022. In 2022, Russia annexed both upon their requests.
Ukraine has not governed Crimea since 2014.
The coup in 2014 involved the U.S. State Department, the CIA and the overthrow of the government of Ukraine, creating Nulandia. Neither Crimea, DPR, nor LPR owed any allegiance to Nulandia.
What government was overthrown in 2022?
Start with last first
What govt was overthrown 2022, not for lack of intention or trying. The drive on Kiev was stopped, had it not been is it your assertion that a change of govt in Kiev would not have been initiated?
2nd, you like to cut and paste my comment, that is fine , but it is interesting that you did not include this from me where I said it was “essentially a coup”. Meaning the actions in Luhansk, Donetsk, and Crimea by Russia was the beginning of the coup to change the govt not only in these regions, which they did, but in Ukraine overall. A green revolution(pun intended)
“ The actions by Russia in 2014 are no different than 2022, just done under a lie of a organic action, something they have now admitted they organized, implemented, and used their own people to accomplish, so it was essentially a coup.
But coups are bad right?”
It is true you didn’t mention “little green men”, but those are the Russians acting as indigenous citizens who facilitated the “independence “ movement, the idea that this was some sort of organic uprising( which the Russians have admitted being a part of now,and I thought outside influences and activities by third parties was wrong) is just plain false. Like the faux elections after invading Kharkiv and Kherson regions. An election held at gun point and without control of all the regions, even for the Russians, is reaching. In both cases they ran and counted the election results. Stalin would have been proud, as I recall he said something to the effect of it doesn’t matter how people vote, just who counts the votes
Russia manufactured, staged, and implemented the “uprisings “ , and that kind of activity is bad right? Or just bad when Russia is on the receiving end of interference?
“Ukraine has not governed Crimea since 2014” is a bit like saying after hitler invaded and took France , he then ran a referendum in 1944 asking the French if they wanted to be part of Germany, and after “counting”’the votes declared they did, case closed( don’t worry about those little green men in Normandy), France did not govern France since 1940….
You may respond if you wish, I get your position. I think you get mine and doubt we will change either of ours positions
Good chat
There ain't no good guy, there ain't no bad guy
There's only you and me and we just disagree
~Dave Mason, We Just Disagree (1977), written by Jim Krueger.
Ain't nuthin' wrong with disagreeing.
What govt was overthrown 2022, not for lack of intention or trying. The drive on Kiev was stopped, had it not been is it your assertion that a change of govt in Kiev would not have been initiated?
Black's Law Dictionary 11th Ed.
coup d'etat. A sudden, usu. violent, change of government through seizure of power; a quick and often violent attempt by a group to take control of the government. Often shortened to coup.
Waging of an international military conflict is not an attempted coup. A coup attempt is prosecuted by a domestic group, not a foreign country. We evidently disagree on the definition of a coup.
Black's Law Dictionary 11th Ed.
war. Hostile conflict by means of armed forces carried on between countries, states, or rulers within the same country or state; a period of such conflict .• A state of war may also exist without armed conflict, for example, the treaty formally ending the World War II state of war between the United States and Japan was signed seven years after the fighting ended in 1945. Cf. battle.
War is nothing but a duel on a larger scale. Countless duels go to make up war, but a picture of it as a whole can be formed by imagining a pair of wrestlers. Each tries through physical force to compel the other to do his will; his immediate aim is to throw his opponent in order to make him incapable of further resistance. War is thus an act of force to compel our enemy to do our will. Carl Von Clausewitz, On War 83 (1818; Michael Howard and Peter Paret trans., 1993).
A coup is a matter of domestic politics. An international armed conflict is the use of military force by a foreign enemy to force submission to the will of the foreign country. Russia, DPR and LPR did not design to become the new government of Ukraine; rather a military action was taken to force Ukraine to recognize DPR and LPR, and to cease and desist acts of aggression against them. On the part of Russia, it is also to force the government of Ukraine to demilitarize, adopt a policy of neutrality, and to permanently abandon any intent to join NATO.
Gary D. Solis, The Law of Armed Conflict, Cambridge University Press, pg. 150:
Common Article 2 International Armed ConflictsIn 1949 Geneva Convention common article 2, one category of armed conflict is defined: "the present convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them." (Because all the states — countries — have ratified the 1949 conventions, all states are "High Contracting Parties.")
In a common article 2 conflict, — an international armed conflict, two or more states are engaged in armed conflict against each other. All four of the 1949 Geneva Conventions apply, plus, for states that have ratified it, 1977 Additional Protocol I.
It had become common practice to wage war without declaring or recognizing a state of war, evading the Laws of War. Thus, the Law of Armed Conflict replaced the Laws of War, and coverage was extended to all international armed conflicts, regardless of whether they were declared or recognized by the parties to the conflict.
2nd, you like to cut and paste my comment, that is fine , but it is interesting that you did not include this from me where I said it was “essentially a coup”. Meaning the actions in Luhansk, Donetsk, and Crimea by Russia was the beginning of the coup to change the govt not only in these regions, which they did, but in Ukraine overall. A green revolution(pun intended)
I said several times there was no coup and felt that was sufficient. However I shall revise and extend my remarks (like congress critters) and make my denial of a coup applicable to all discussion of, or comparison to, a coup. Recognizing we differ regarding what is a coup, my contention is there was no coup, nor any coup attempt. There was and is an international armed conflict, the result of which will determine the status of Crimea, DPR and LPR. When the United States finally was established as the victor in our war for independence by the Paris Peace Treaty of 1783, our independence was recognized retroactively to our Declaration of Independence in 1776.
Upon the declarations of independence of DPR and LPR, on May 16, 2014 Ukraine declared each to be a terrorist organization. Rather like the Confederate states, should they lose the war, they would lose their claim to independence and it would be like they never existed. If the war effort prevails, their independence will be established as of 2014.
When the United States threw up a naval blockade around the sovereign state of Cuba, it was not a coup or coup attempt. It was a military attempt by force to exert the will of the United States upon the sovereign state of Cuba by denying them their sovereign right to host Russian missiles on their sovereign soil. It was not an attempt to become the government of Cuba, but to force the will of the United States down the throat of the Cuban government. It worked, but it was not a coup.
It is true you didn’t mention “little green men”, but those are the Russians acting as indigenous citizens who facilitated the “independence “ movement, the idea that this was some sort of organic uprising( which the Russians have admitted being a part of now,and I thought outside influences and activities by third parties was wrong) is just plain false.
Russians did not act as indigenous citizens of Ukraine. DNR and LPR formally declared independence. Russia formally recognized each as a nation state and established relations. Russia entered into written mutual defense agreements with DPR and LPR. The agreement was similar to NATO Article 5. It is every bit as legitimate as using NATO Article 5 to bomb the former Yugoslavia who had not attacked any NATO nation, said bombing being performed in the absence of any approval by the UN Security Council. The U.S./NATO does enjoy any special privilege to be the sole party able to play that game. Officially, Russia came to the aid of DPR and LPR in performance of its duties pursuant to mutual defense agreement via a Special Military Operation in the aid of DPR and LPR.
As for any allegiance owed by DPR or LPR upon the 2014 coup, when the United States under the Articles of Confederation had eleven states ratify the Constitution and set up an entirely new form of government, the new government was established with the inauguration of George Washington, and the union under the Articles of Confederation was dissolved. Note only eleven states had ratified and joined the Constitutional union pursuant to the terms of the Constitution. North Carolina held out for over six months. Rhode Island held out for over a year. Neither owed any allegiance to the Constitutional government until they ratified. Only the threat to break off all relations with Rhode Island twisted their arm enough to get them to ratify.
DPR and LPR was neither an organic or other attempt to perform a coup. Like the Confederates, they did not seek to govern anyone but themselves.
Outside influences and activities performed by NATO or the U.S. are the normal, routine order of the day. One can follow certain diplomats, and where they go, demonstrations followed by uprisings against the lawful government magically just spring up.
“Ukraine has not governed Crimea since 2014” is a bit like saying after hitler invaded and took France , he then ran a referendum in 1944 asking the French if they wanted to be part of Germany, and after “counting”’the votes declared they did, case closed( don’t worry about those little green men in Normandy), France did not govern France since 1940….
Crimea declared independence from post-coup Ukraine. I do not recall France declaring independence. Crimea, upon its request, was annexed by Russia. At some point in its history, Ukraine has to show its intent and ability to govern Crimea or recognize that Crimea has established its independence. Sort of like Vermont declared independence in 1777, waged successful revolution, and joined the constitutional union in 1791 under the provision for free and independent states, not as a territory or part of another state.
DPR and LPR declared independence in 2014 but did not obtain recognition by Russia, and a mutual defense treaty with Russia, until 2022. Thus, Ukraine felt free to, among other things, lob shells at civilians in the city of Donetsk for eight years. That freedom left the building with Elvis when Russia guaranteed military assistance upon any aggression by Ukraine. Then came FAFO. And then came the combined forces of DPR, LPR, and the Russian Federation. The result of the conflict will determine the fate of DPR and LPR.
France did not govern France when entirely occupied by the German army. France was ruled by martial law which is defined as the will of the military commander, not as a government. Under martial law the civilian courts do not function, there is no legislature as the military commander simply dictates whatever he wants.
“ Russians did not act as indigenous citizens of Ukraine. DNR and LPR formally declared independence”
You lost me there, the Russians have admitted that they were behind to Luhansk and Donetsk “independence”. They have admitted it,
So agree to disagree
You lost me there, the Russians have admitted that they were behind to Luhansk and Donetsk “independence”. They have admitted it,
What are you saying? If Russia was behind the independence movement of DPR and LPR, Russians automatically change their citizenship to become indigenous citizens of the newborn states? That makes no sense.
The little green men, then arranging the “referendum “ and of course counting the votes,
BTW why are so many “ethnic” Russians in that area, clue starvation, relocation, murder followed by relocation of Russians to the areas, much like Crimea, might ask the Tatars about that little deal.
Are you at least a little bit interested in how Russia invaded Kharkiv and Kherson, does t even occupy the whole regions, yet implement a “free and fair” election where they vote to join Russia
Got to give him credit for that, just repeating history
Amazing how they can’t see that, I have asked many of the usuals, since Biden signed the pact act which helps veterans with exposure to things like burn pits,
Open sewage facilities and agent orange, should I oppose this legislation?
Xiden is worse than slime, but if he does something I agree with, I can support that , and still despise him
Certainly even before Poland???
Czechia, Hungary and Poland were invited to begin accession talks at the Alliance’s Madrid Summit in 1997 and on 12 March 1999 they became the first former members of the Warsaw Pact to join NATO
Are you at least a little bit interested in how Russia invaded Kharkiv and Kherson, does t even occupy the whole regions, yet implement a “free and fair” election where they vote to join Russia
Nope, not even a little bit interested. All matters of dispute involving Ukraine have been passed off to the armies to resolve. The armies will resolve all issues without debating that stuff.
Funny you do seem quite interested based on the discussion we have been having
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