Posted on 08/23/2023 9:42:49 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
Putin invaded Ukraine aiming to make it a vassal state.
That failed.
By that Ukraine won — just as a person set upon by a gang of slavers who walks away bleeding but still free has won.
The very site you gave for your gdp proof says
https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/UKR
2023 Projected Real GDP (% Change) : -3.0
Not -34, but -3
That’s aid.
NATO is not at war with Russia — Russia went to vassalize Ukraine — and failed.
“Ukraine’s goals were NATO membership”
Ukraine’s goal AFTER Putin invaded was to survive and not be a vassal state.
They did that - that’s a victory.
Ukraine’s economy shrunk by MORE than 34% since wars begin.
But while Russia is GROWING at 1.5% in 2023; Ukraine, the obvious winner in this war is shrinking another 3% predicted in this year 2023.
Let me do some basic math for you 34+3= 37% since wars begin. Success! You win! Hands down, you beat Russia when it comes to who can shrink their economy the most!
Now, as you attempt to redefine failure into success, another thing that was predictable from day one of this war, it’s not Russia that lost land, but Ukraine; it’s not Russia that lost a major industrial area, but Ukraine; it’s not Russia that lost a major port city, but Ukraine.
Let me bring your attention to four maps:
https://danieljmitchell.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/russian-in-ukraine.jpg
https://danieljmitchell.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/ukraine-election-results.jpg
And then compare them to this map: https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/36a7f6a6f5a9448496de641cf64bd375 (up to date map).
If you look back to my post literally to day one of the invasion, you’ll see that even I, not read on to any secret plans, not part of the administration, state department etc. Predicted this outcome. ***Because it was apparent!***
The Russians took those lands that (1) Are ethnic Russian, (2) historically once were Russian, (3) where in the Soviet era and with Russia assistance things were built up such as the industrial area.
Contrary to the Western Cold War boogyman and Putin mad man arguments, the Russians took those areas where they see they can lay a claim, and which they can reasonably hold without some huge and long term resistance. They are actually very predictable.
Russia has no interest in seizing land which will drain there resources for perpetuity. The land they seized on this operation, just like when they took the Crimea in 2014, is land where the majority of people see themselves as Russian, where it was nationalist Ukrainians that were sending troops for years to put these folks down, had to rig elections to squash local leaders that are pro Russian, close Orthodox churches that spoke out about the abuses, banned the use of the Russian language...
I know it’s outside of your CNN and MSNBC paradigm, but you are no liberator in Ukraine. Ukraine is a civil war, where the true underdog (minority) are ethnic Russians and you can give a shit about, because you simply have chosen sides because Russia is always bad in your mind. It’s a Ukrainian internal conflict where the US and Russia, as well as the EU have been meddling for years and because we have chosen sides, are are not fair and impartial, because we have vested economic interests, a peaceful resolution was squandered. The issue which tipped the scale for war was NATO membership unconditionally (which we would also not have accepted of in Russia’s shoes), and that was neither a prudent nor necessary decision by this US administration.
This is a stupid war which never should have happened and even now, the ultimate outcome will be the same regardless of how much of my tax money is wasted or Ukrainians are burned up in a war we caused and are perpetuating.
By ALL measures, Ukraine lost this war (military objectives, political goals, economic outcome). You simply make up your own and new definition of success and then pretend as if Ukraine didn’t lose. Our leaders, the ones responsible, have to keep folks like you convinced of the cause, and not get people to start thinking that Biden screwed up again. However, subtlety even the block heads responsible for this war are beginning to change the narrative (obviously not making themselves responsible): https://www.kyivpost.com/post/21718 Like you, that’s called “changing the goal post” and “managing expectations.”
Pretty amazing what the US media is willing to go along with, how they get their marching orders and simply push a narrative/censor/spin/repetitively push a message may it be Covid, J6, or Ukraine. Sad statement when I need to VPN out of the US so I can get the other sides perspective, or have to read foreign media not associated with the big US and Euro media conglomerates...
Ukraine survived and fought off the invading Russians who were attempting to make it a vassal state.
When an attempted kidnapping victim fights off the kidnappers/rapists and ends up with a broken arm, most people say “she defended herself from evil”.
But you would say “she should have gone quietly with the kidnapper/rapists and she wouldn’t have broken her arm”
I suppose you would advise that to your female family members???
By your measures, Ukraine won the war:
1. Military objectives: survive and not be a vassal state - done
2. political goals: survive and not be a vassal state - done
3. economic outcome: survive and not be a vassal state - done
Are you the kind that blames rape victims?
Vassal state, what does that mean? Ukraine is under American control in every aspect.
Just survive? No. The goal was to stop the Russians from taking the land in the East, then to push them back out. Neither has happened. Abject failure.
It was NEVER Russia’s plan to take all of Ukraine, nor even damage them to much. Realize, most of the damage being done to the Ukraine today is self inflicted, constant counter offensives that go now where at and cost thousands of lives which of course we don’t report on.
If the rape victim went to a bar by herself, got so drunk she blacked out, was hitting on guys and scantly clothed even before blacking out, the answer is “yes,” she is partially to blame for being raped regardless of what society says. Common sense.
Once Ukraine said “yes” to the Biden offer of unconditional NATO membership in October of 2021, the innocence was lost. Ukraine had just put themselves in a position where they are largely to blame with what follows, even if they are just a “vassal state” of the US and doing as we tell them. When we pushed NATO, unconditionally, we were putting Russia in an unacceptable security situation. We were doing something we would never accept ourselves if in Russia’s shoes.
If you want to talk about puppet’s, look no further than Mr Z, someone installed by the US. Someone where our MSM has absolutely no reports about who was financing him, his ties to the US state department, our NGOs (yes, Soros), and intelligence services, and how a young Jewish comedian with zero political weight rose to power at lightning speed. But no worries, nothing to see here... time for another story in our media about democracy, sovereignty, human rights and peace.
The problem: Ukraine and this conflict is because of outside influence. If folks would have really wanted a peaceful solution, if “sovereignty” and “democracy” were the goal, then we should have embraced the Minsk accord which basically is all about ridding outside influence (militarily) from Ukraine. The fact that we were the biggest culprit in violating this agreement tells all about our true intentions: https://www.ft.com/content/21b8f98e-b2a5-11e4-b234-00144feab7de
Reality: https://www.newsmax.com/us/defense-secretary-lloyd-austin/2023/09/19/id/1135000/ We are warming up to the idea of negotiating and ending the war. We are beginning to accept the idea that Ukraine lost this land and population, an industrial area and port city. The narrative is beginning to change at our most senior levels.
Vassal state - means like Belarus.
Ukraine is not under American control like Belarus is under the Kremlin’s control.
Ukraine fought off Putin’s attempt to make it a vassal state - that was Putin’s goal. And Putin failed.
The fact that Ukraine survived - despite the pain - means that it has won. It’s injured, but better than being assimilated into the Kremlin empire
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