If the documents did not belong to President Donald J. Trump,
then why did the government dump them in the parking lot of
the White House and tell him to deal with them?
Posted on 06/10/2023 4:08:38 AM PDT by FarCenter
The sensational federal indictment Donald Trump faces has stunned one of the former president's most famous supporters, Harvard Law Professor Alan Dershowitz.
Trump faces 31 counts over claims he illegally-stored highly classified government documents at his Mar-a-Lago country club. Jaw-dropping details of the charges against Trump were outlined Friday - and he faces a lengthy prison sentence if convicted. Trump will appear before a Miami court on Tuesday.
Dershowitz describes himself as a liberal Democrat, although he has previously spoken out against what he sees as the unfair persecution of Trump.
And in an exclusive interview with DailyMail.com, he said the new charges Trump faces are exceptionally serious. The author also warned that the former president's usual strategy of going on the attack could land him in even deeper trouble.
(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...
The PRA is not constitutional and further is not a criminal statute. So you cannot be charged with a crime for violation of the PRA.
Also, the Espionage act is not constitutional against a sitting or former President. Also, in order for anyone to be convicted under the Espionage act, your actions in mishandling classified or secret documents has to be either deliberate or a willful disregard. (See Hillary Clinton).
Frankly, the documents were safer in Trump’s underwear drawer than if he had left them at the Biden White House.
Will you be pleased if they manage to eek out a conviction in this case? You don’t seem to even want to consider that Trump is innocent.
I can’t seem to find any reference to NARA anywhere In the Constitution. Was there an amendment that passed when I wasn’t looking?
What am I missing here?
There’s nothing in the Constitution saying the President owns all documents created while he is in office, either, so that is not really an argument. The way presidential records are handled is laid out by statute - passed by Congress and signed by a President. I don’t see a constitutional conflict here.
You seem to forget that the Constitution provides enumerated powers to each branch of government.
Congress had no power to legislate what a president does with documents he produces as the executive branch of government. The executive branch of government lies in the person of the President.
What he does with Presidental documents is at the discretion of the President up until the moment the new President is sworn in. Any documents produced after that moment belong to the new President.
Trump took all those documents while he was President. Under the powers granted exclusively to the Executive Branch, those are Trump’s.
Congress cannot legally legislate that they be kept in some newly created bureaucratic office under the control of an unelected bureaucrat. Not only is that illegal, it is insane!!!
I don’t think you would find any court in the land that would subscribe to your viewpoint on this matter. First, except for personal records, everything created by the executive branch are owned by the government, not by the President. Moreover, the PRA primarily covers what happens to the Presidential records AFTER the president has left office, in other words, no longer covered by Article 2 of the Constitution. Your argument might make sense if you were arguing that control of the records passed to the new president, but you are arguing that the Constitution requires that a person that no longer has any standing under the Constitution must be allowed custody and control of government property and that Congress has no say in the matter.
The PRA is not constitutional. For 200 years all Presidential documents were the personal property of the President to take or leave. Congress has no authority to exercise power over what the President does with documents that come into his possession during his tenure as President.
I looked over the statute and I didn’t see a preface that indicated the section of the constitution they were relying upon to give them authority to pass this law.
Jimmy Carter, who had no respect for the constitution, signed it.
The signature of a President does not make a law which violates the constitution constitutional.
The president has no authority to delegate to congress powers that solely belong to the executive branch.
I don’t believe what you state is accurate and I surely hope it never becomes the accepted rule of law.
Let me explain why with a scenario. Let’s assume Trump used this as a defense and was able to get an expedited hearing by SCOTUS, and just prior to the election, SCOTUS agrees - any classified information the president receives belongs to him and when he takes it with him it is automatically declassified. Trump wins the election! On January 20th, Joe Biden packs up truckloads of sensitive confidential data that China, Ukraine and other countries would love to get their hands on. On January 21st, he sets up shop selling the information to the highest bidder - and there is not a thing anyone can do, because according to the premise you proposed, everything he takes is declassified and belongs to him. He even gives a big chunk to Hunter to set up his own shop selling the data - since the data is declassified, there can be no prohibition on him doing so.
Selling those documents, even if they are no longer “classified per se” is already illegal if it renders aid and comfort to the enemy.
Honestly, do you think Biden currently possesses any secret or classified documents that China doesn’t already have? Biden is owned by China. They have their spies everywhere.
If Trump or Biden or any President sold any “sensitive” (not necessarily classified) to China or any enemy of the United States, they are guilty of treason.
We survived as a nation for 200 years before the PRA was passed. We didn’t need it then, and we don’t need it now.
“ The PRA is not constitutional and further is not a criminal statute. So you cannot be charged with a crime for violation of the PRA.”
I disagree about the constitutionality of the PRA, but I agree that it is not a criminal statute.
“ Also, the Espionage act is not constitutional against a sitting or former President. ”
I agree with you about sitting presidents - former presidents, it would be unconstitutional regarding action taken as president, not necessarily regarding actions taken after leaving office. But the Espionage Act is of questionable constitutionality overall, and certainly not appropriate in a case that should come under the PRA. I also agree that the mishandling has to be deliberate or willful disregard. I think that is why they included the audio tape in the indictment - to show using Trump’s own words that he knew the document was classified, knew that he didn’t have the authority to declassify it, and still shared it with people not authorized to see it.
Show me the section of the constitution that gives congress the right, power or authority to dictate to the President of the United States what he must do with documents that come into his possession while he is President.
Show me where the constitution where they have the authority to force him to surrender those documents to a an unelected bureaucrat to do with as he or she chooses?
“ Selling those documents, even if they are no longer “classified per se” is already illegal if it renders aid and comfort to the enemy.”
But treason would not be a valid charge, as we are not at war with China or Ukraine, so they are legally not enemies. And you are saying that Congress could not pass any law to restrict what a president or former president could do with the documents that come into his possession during his presidency.
Show me in the Constitution where it says that everything that comes into the possession of the President, in his role as President, becomes his personal property, to do with as he wishes when he leaves office?
Article 2 section 1
Article 2 Section 1 says absolutely nothing about the disposition of anything that comes into the possession of the president during his term.
Actually it does. It gives the President sole authority over the executive branch. The President is the executive branch.
Now show me where congress has the power to tell the president what to do with Presidential records.
Or where it says that the records need to be turned over to an unelected bureaucrat.
Article… section… clause?
Actually the constitution DOES say the president is in charge of all documents. First, he is The Commander in Chief. Next, he is the Chief Executive.
In a discussion over Ukraine with chairman Xi of China, he could choose to reveal secrets to make a point or to negotiate. He doesn’t need a congressional committee or a nara bureaucrat, or a military memeber to give him permission. That is what Chief means.
The President has no authority to tell Congress what to do with Congressional documents. What happens to them is totally at the discretion of the Speaker of the House. Traditionally they are placed in the congressional record. That is a tradition. The same tradition was that Presidents retained control over the Presidential records even after they left office.
There is no constitutional provision for congress to dictate to the executive what he does with the Presidential papers. They are granted no such authority under the Constitution. Nor does a president have the authority to bind future presidents from exercising their Presidential prerogative.
“If Trump took a document, that he did not declassify, he’s hooped.”
Define, “did not declassify”. BY what process is there to declassify? Hint: You’ll be wrong no matter what you say here.
They have been illegally spying on Trump for entrapment purposes for 6 years, and it’s proven.
So I can only believe that’s exactly what is going on here, again.
The problem isn’t Trump, it’s the weaponization of government and selective prosecutions, it’s the elephant in the room and must be stopped.
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