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To: DoughtyOne
Sincere, respectful reply, one long-time freeper to another.

I know you truly, sincerely, believe what you write. As do I.

Many gullible, good-hearted, loving, trusting, gullible dupes (like I used to be, an old Cold Warrior), feel the same way you feel now.

Please look at this, again, then reply to me.

Were the 200,000 DEAD IRAQI CIVILIANS just "collateral damage" to you?

"THEY WERE WORTH IT, MCGEE, IT WAS WAR!"

Were our bombs somehow, "Holy Bombs," because Americans were convinced that 1. Saddam was also behind 9-11 (total lie) and 2. Iraq had WMDs (also a total lie, to stampede us into war.)

I'm not just posting some insulting reflexive reply to you.

Do you really not care about the 200,000 dead Iraqis, or the tens of thousands of dead and maimed American soldiers, ALL KILLED OVER LIES?

"BUT THIS TIME IT'S DIFFERENT! THIS TIME THEY ARE TELLING US THE TRUTH! I HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT!!!"

(DO you EVER feel a twinge, that you are being played for a good-hearted, gullible fool? Saying that as a former good-hearted, gullible fool.)

70 posted on 10/13/2022 3:05:46 PM PDT by Travis McGee (EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Travis McGee

My take on the Iraq War, was that it wasn’t conditional on
WMDs being there, for it to be a worthwhile endeavor.

I am dead certain there were chemical weapons there, and I
think he moved them out of Iraq into Syria. I think those
chemical weapons were utilized in the Syrian dust-up years
back. Several times they were utilized, killing people.

A stash of Chemical weapons was stumbled upon between
Baghdad and Syria during the war. They were what we
think of as WMDs. I don’t think it takes ton after
ton for these weapons to be very dangerous, so even
though it was a mid-sized cash (from my memory), it
was still a big deal. It’s my take they were ones that
didn’t quite make their way all the way to Syria. There
was no other reason for them to be out there in the
middle of nowhere.

Iraq attacked Iran under Hussein in 1980. That war
carried on for eight years. Reagan wisely allowed
the two nations to deplete each other to the point
they were less of a threat to others.

Estimations on deaths range from a low of about 300,000
to around 2 million. For a number of years both sides
were to figured to have lost 500,000 men. In recent
years that number has come under scrutiny, and I think
it’s reasoned to think it was probably about 500,000
men total for both sides. Those are massive losses, but it
was that type of war. There was a stalemate on
advancement, and they just slugged it out.

Within about 16 months, Iraq invaded Kuwait. Hussein
was a very problematic individual. Not sure what the
driving force was, but I believe he sincerely wanted to
rule the entire Persian Peninsula, taking over the entire
region’s oil infrastructure, including wells.

Maybe it was ego. Maybe he felt like he’d get more
respect at home. Maybe he wanted to be the big man of
the region never to be forgotten.

The U. S. and 35 nations participated in sending his forces
back into Iraq, and restoring the Kuwait Kingdom.

I know people don’t like us being involved in these things,
but we can’t just let the world burn down, when we have the
ability to correct things. And yes, sometimes we won’t
get involved. Other time we will. The Iran Iraq war
is a good example. There are others out there too.

We were successful in getting Hussein back under control.
The U. N. joined us in setting limits on his troop and
aircraft movements. He could take care of business in
his own nation, but he was prevented from threatening
his neighbors by moving right up to the border with them.

During that same period of time, U. N. inspectors tried
to work with him to make sure he had no nuclear program.
He refused to cooperate. He did it in such a way that
the inspectors were frustrated, and were sure he had a
program he was hiding. I can see his objection to this,
but he was very lucky to still be in office. He should
have been happy to be the King and enjoy the remainder
of his life. He refused that option.

He began to fly outside the control zones. He flew right
up to the border of other nations. He moved large bodies
of his troops right up to those borders making it seem
he was going to invade another nation.

This was a guy that had already attacked four other nations.

Then the cat and mouse game with the U. N. came to a head.
They threw up their hands. They declared that they had
no way of proving he had a WMD program, but they also had
no way of proving he didn’t. They leaned toward him having
them.

During this time he was very boisterous on international
broadcasts trashing the U. S., Israel, and anyone else
that came to mind during his tirades.

He promised to help anyone attacking the U. S. He
promised to provide $25,000 to the family of any suicide
bomber in Israel.

The man was responsible for the deaths of between
half a million and one million people. He had used
chemical weapons on his own people. He was clearly a
determined threat to other nations as well.

A large percentage of oil moved through the region.
Europe was a large user of at that time. Hussein
was a threat to the normal order of things in the
region.

The U. S. and other nations made a case to the U. N. that
it was time to remove Hussein. Arab nations were actually
supportive of the operation. When can we remember Arab
nations signing on to a primarily U. S. enterprise
anywhere, let alone the Middle-East?

They were given a green light. They used it.

As for civilian losses, I can’t tell you how valid those
numbers are. Many terrorists were killed. They were
drawn like flies to the area, being trained and equipped
by Iran.

They traveled to Iraq from across the region to take part.
It was a holy Jihad primarily against the U. S. They were
assured they would be met in heaven with beautiful women.
What can I say.

There were no battlefield uniforms. These guys wore the
customary clothing the public did.

The folks who count the dead are often times peace groups
that want the number to be as offensive as possible, to
influence the global population that both sides are evil,
when one was clearly a terrorist effort, and the U. S.
was simply trying to get the nation quieted down and
manageable.

Even it it isn’t a peace group that develops these
numbers, we both know how leftist the international
community is. We pull their ass out of the fire, and
they take aim at us. This is how they do it.

They make the numbers look as terrible as they possibly
can. Years later, who is going to correct them? Even
our side takes a look at those numbers and say, “Me oh
my!” I’m not convinced that is called for.

I do not believe our field commanders are comfortable
with killing large numbers of civilians. Then again,
when you have a terrorist leader who only surfaces once
every few years, you have take them out or lose more
of our people or even Iraqi civilians when the urge
hits them to take out more people. Let’s remember that
these people set off bombs in markets, theaters, coffee
shops... We hit people from time to time. They do so
as a course of building fear of terrorism. That’s their
trade. It’s how they do things.

Do I care about civilians? Of course I do. I’m sure you
do. Why wouldn’t I?

I care about the Russian troops and their families. Why
would I not care about Iraqis. I just don’t think that
any civilians globally, are expendable. When I read of
a terrorist attack in Bali, I care about those people
like I would our own people.

Everyone is just trying to get through life. I want them
to be able to.

I do not think allowing the citizens of Iraq to be under
the thumb of a ruthless killer, is something we can just
laugh off.

Back to the numbers. You may see them as pristine. I
don’t. It’s hard to document them, and it’s easy to
toss the numbers into which ever category you want, if
you want to make a certain entity look bad. I think
the U. S. is a big target.

In the current situation in the Ukraine, I understate the
number of dead people. I said 50+ thousand Russians had
died. I said 25+ thousand Ukrainians had died. In troops
and civilians, I’m certain it may be three to four times
that many for the Ukraine. It may be larger for Russia
also, but the point is not to blow the numbers out as high
as possible, because one was too many.

Not one person should have died during this time period.
Not one family should have been separated for ever.

This is a tragedy. it never should have started.

I’m not trying to be unfair to Russia, but it needs to
withdraw from the Ukraine.

The Ukraine should not take advantage, but Russia agreed
to the Ukraine’s borders. It promised it would recognize
them. It hasn’t, and folks just don’t trust it anymore.

These issues were all put to rest in the 1990s. We are
rehashing them now. We should refuse to.

I can’t address what was taking place in the Eastern part
of the Ukraine because there is far too much gray area
for me to make a detailed assessment from.

It just doesn’t make sense that the international community
would overlook the Ukraine shelling civilian populations
centers for year after year. There were more dynamics to
it than what have been revealed. With more dynamics, it
might make sense. Right now it doesn’t, and I can’t
address the situation with certainty.

Thank you for your opening. I do get testy, but I remember
the days of our agreeing most of the time. That’s still
how I see you, though it might not sound like it at times.


81 posted on 10/13/2022 5:10:54 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (I pledge allegiance the flag of the U S of A, and the REPUBLIC for which stands.)
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