Posted on 05/05/2022 3:37:28 AM PDT by tlozo
The 90 M777 howitzers that the United States is providing to Ukraine will not only make it more difficult for the Russians to move out in the open but the guns could also support a future Ukrainian offensive to reclaim Russian-occupied parts of their country, experts told Task & Purpose.
About 70 of the 155 mm guns along with roughly 70,000 artillery rounds have been transferred to Ukraine so far, a senior defense official told reporters on Monday. More than 200 Ukrainian troops are expected to be trained on how to operate the howitzers by the end of Monday with another 50 Ukrainian service members scheduled to begin training later this week.
The first Ukrainian artillerymen were trained by Canadian troops and other Ukrainians were taught how to operate the howitzers by Florida National Guardsmen, the senior defense official said at a Pentagon news briefing. Those guardsmen had been on a training mission inside Ukraine before the Russian invasion and now they are continuing their mission in Germany.
Even in this age of modern – and often over-engineered – weapons systems, artillery has proven its worth time and again on the battlefield. During the 2017 fight to drive the Islamic State group from its former capital of Raqqa, Syria, a Marine artillery detachment fired so many 155 mm rounds in support of Syrian Democratic Forces that they burned out the barrels of two of their M777 howitzers.
“The one thing on artillery is: We’ve always called it ‘the king of battle,’ back to Napoleonic times, just because there’s really no defense against it once it’s firing,” said Marine Col. James W. Frey, a senior military fellow at the Center for a New American Security think tank in Washington, D.C.
Another inherent advantage of artillery is that it can be fired in all weather conditions and at any time of day or night, Frey told Task & Purpose.
The howitzers will help Ukrainian forces hinder the Russian’s ability to maneuver, he said. Because it’s muddy in spring, the Russians are likely to stick to the roads when they move. Using drones and other forms of reconnaissance, the Ukrainians can constantly monitor those roads and strike with artillery when needed.
“The artillery just gives you a lot more options 24/7 without having to expose people within that distance,” Frey said.
Since the Ukrainians know their own territory better than the Russians, they can also design their defenses to channel Russian advances into kill zones, where the Russian forces could be destroyed by artillery, Frey said.
“There’s only so many lines of communication to go in and out for those roads – especially if you’re working heavier equipment and logistics that the Russians are depending on,” Frey said. “You could certainly knock that out because there’s only so many avenues of approach that they could use.
The Defense Department is also providing Ukrainian forces with 14 counter-artillery radars. Combined with those radars, which the Ukrainians have been receiving since 2015, the howitzers will allow Ukrainian forces to target and attack Russian tube and rocket artillery, said retired Army Lt. Gen. Ben Hodges, former commander of U.S. Army Europe.
“The radar intercepts incoming artillery and then your own guns can shoot back at where it came from quickly,” Hodges said. “This is an important part of the fight. And so, providing the Ukrainians additional artillery will enable them to destroy – or at least disrupt – the Russian artillery and rocket launchers that are causing the most damage against Ukrainians – but also against towns and cities.”
Artillery is generally used against targets in the open, such as air defense systems, logistics areas, and convoys of lightly armored vehicles, Hodges said. Other prime targets for artillery include command posts and headquarters.
“If you discover a division or combined arms army headquarters in a village or set up somewhere – that’s exactly what you would want to do, is hammer that with artillery,” Hodges said.
The Ukrainians claim they have already killed and wounded several Russian general officers by attacking enemy command posts, including Chief of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, General of the Army Valery Gerasimov. However, U.S. officials have not confirmed these claims.
As well as providing the Ukrainians with a strong defensive capability, the howitzers would also allow Ukrainian forces to switch to offense, Hodges said. “If there is a counterattack of any sort by the Ukrainians or a conventional counter-offensive, they will need the artillery to support their attack as well,” he said.
There are two ways the Ukrainians could use their new howitzers to go on the attack: They could fire massive barrages to blow holes through the Russian lines, or they could destroy Russian artillery ahead of the attack, said retired Army Col. Tom Davis, who led the 4th Battalion, 82nd Field Artillery Regiment in the 3rd Armored Division during the 1991 Gulf War.
Every time the Russians fire one of their own artillery pieces, they will have to pack up and move to avoid the Ukrainian counter fire, Davis told Task & Purpose. The Russians also tend to concentrate their artillery “hub-to-hub” while the U.S. military keeps artillery units spread out as a form of protection.
Ultimately, the Ukrainians should receive a total of 183,000 artillery rounds for their M777 howitzers, according to the Defense Department. To put that number into perspective, Davis said that his battalion fired fewer than 1,000 rounds during the Gulf War’s four-day ground campaign.
“If they’re getting 180,000 some-odd rounds, that should give them a pretty good capability to diminish and significantly degrade a lot of the Russian artillery,” Davis told Task & Purpose. “And if they can find the [Russian] logistics spots – if they can find the places where they’ve got their supply trains, where they’ve got the fuel trucks, where they’ve got their own intel command and control organizations – if they can find those places and can take them out, then they’re going to get a real significant advantage because, apparently, the Russians are really struggling with command and control as it is.”
Putin wanted a “new generation war” where the damage to the infrastructure and civilian population is none to minimal in my opinion.
The Western involvement denied the former, and Ukronazis denied the latter.
I generally disagree with the way how it’s going. In my opinion you are either coming in full force or staying home.
On the other hand, I have no doubt that the campaign is going to be a success. It grinds doing the Ukrainian forces just great.
True, but how many more howitzers and shells will be sent?
The $33 billion request includes $20.4 billion requested for military and security assistance, including $5 billion in additional drawdown authorities, $6 billion for the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative and $4 billion for the State Department’s Foreign Military Financing Program, a senior administration official told reporters
The President added that the new package would provide more artillery, armored vehicles, anti-armor systems and anti-aircraft capabilities to the Ukrainian military
https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/28/politics/biden-ukraine-congress/index.html
By default they aren’t. Overall, every expert is going to tell you that the Russian artillery is more advanced. They have laser-guided shells in 152 mm with the deviation of half inch at maximal range since 1980s. The US tried to obtain the technology but was banned from it by the Russian export control at the time. The alternatives are only appearing nowadays and at the cost of over $100k per shell, whereas the Russian is around $6-8k.
1) why are the infrastructure, power, communications etc. still standing?
2) why are russia’s best tanks still in the barns in russia?
3) why are russia’s best crack troops still in russia?
4) why are russia’s best ships still in port ( that old rusted tub that sunk is not among the best )
5) why are russia’s best aircraft still in the barn?
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1) Those are being targeted right now and Ukraine is suffering significant damage.
The problems are that Russia is running out of precision missiles and does not control the air space so its flying artillery (VKF) cannot target at will.
2) Russia’s best tanks are on the battle field and getting blown up every day. If you are imagining T-14s, forget it; there are only a few prototypes that need to be followed by tow trucks.
Other than the 1200 tanks in Ukraine theater, there are only 1300 remaining operational tanks on the whole of the RGF inventory.
The rest are parted out, rusting hulks, stripped for salable items, and too expensive to repair. Also the tank factory has stopped making tanks due to chip shortage and embargoes. No new tanks are going to arrive to save the day.
3) Russia’s best crack troops were returned to Russia in body bags. Any others are needed where they are to give pause to certain powers to the south and in the Far East.
4) Turkey has blockaded the Bosporus - no Russian ships are going to enter the Black Sea - to do so they would have to fight Turkey and then NATO.
5) Their best aircraft are in the fight and going down left and right from S-300 or manpads. Best Aircraft would be SU-25, SU-24, SU-35, etc. Bombers are in the barn because S-300 would nail them - too big a risk.
“you will know what the msm does not want you to know”
you will know what the msm is too lazy to tell you.
3 mm
These cannons fire a 155 mm round, versus the 152 mm round standard in Warsaw Pact countries.
Nothing wrong with 152 mm, but we have some high tech 155 mm munitions, such as the Copperhead and Excalibur rounds. We’d like to field test these things.
The beauty of smart artillery munitions is that you just have to get the round in the vicinity of the target. (Current Ukrainian arty, operating with conventional rounds, is pretty good, btw.)
As for towed artillery, it’s at a severe handicap on the modern battlefield. You fire, let’s say, three rounds, then you have to quick un-ass your location as you’ve got to figure you’ll be facing counter-battery fire. Self-propelled artillery can do the un-assing part rather easily. (Of course, you’d like to keep a battery in reserve to quick answer their counter-battery with counter-counter-battery. This gets fun real quick.)
For anybody interested in this stuff, check out multiple trajectory volley fire. German self-propelled artillery can fire up to five rounds, at different trajectories, that land simultaneously in the target area (if you’ve laid in the coordinates correctly). So, a battery can deliver a devastating attack, and then be outtadere.
Do any of the 5 kinds of 4000 Russian tubes have radar guided munitions? If so can you say which ones? Also how many of which kind have probably been destroyed? Thanks for the detailed information.
https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2022/03/18/russian-military-ran-out-of-guided-bombs-and-missiles/
tl;dr version is that Russia either an out of precision munitions, they’re saving them for a special occasion, or else due to corruption the requisitioned munitions magically transformed into a fleet of oligarch superyachts, private jets, Italian supercars, Swiss bank accounts, and mansions or palaces.
The money for all those toys had to come from somewhere.
This is simply impossible, even with self-guiding munitions.
Initial charge, temperature of the tube, atmospheric pressure and wind will all cause variation in trajectory.
The M777 howitzer has a CEP of 5 meters with unguided shells, which is about as good as anyone can get without guided munitions, and about 1 meter is about all you'll get with guidance. Even a guided munition has to overcome all of the momentum and other factors needed to cut 4 meters out of the 5 meter CEP. You might get a tighter CEP only if you use a tiny shell where a lot of the thrown weight consists of the guidance system alone, but 1/2 an inch will still be impossible.
The Soviet Union designed some fairly good equipment, often much more clever and less complex than Western systems, like the helmet guided optics on some fighters that turned the air-to-air missile slightly to obtain a lock vs. the very expensive improved electronic auto-homing systems developed by the US.
But much of the top high-tech equipment were lab models that could be produced only in small quantities. Even now, the Iskander, which is a pretty good system, still has a high failure rate and relies on a specialized guidance computer toughened for acceleration and temperature that is made in the US. Russia won't be getting more of those.
Do any of the 5 kinds of 4000 Russian tubes have radar guided munitions? If so can you say which ones? Also how many of which kind have probably been destroyed?
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I only posted the heavy artillery pieces. All of the self-propelled ones have some sort of guided munition.
Documented losses by both sides using image links.
Orc losses:
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html
Heavy Mortars (13, of which destroyed: 5, captured: 8)
12 - 120mm 2B11/2S12: (1, destroyed) (2 and 3, destroyed) (4, destroyed) (5, destroyed) (6, captured) (7, captured) (8, captured) (9, captured) (10, 11 and 12, captured)
1 - 120mm 2B11/2S12A: (1, captured)
Towed Artillery (59, of which destroyed: 12, damaged: 4, abandoned: 5, captured: 38)
1 - 100mm MT-12 anti-tank gun: (1, captured)
6 - 120mm 2B16 Nona-K howitzer: (1, abandoned) (2, abandoned) (3, abandoned) (4, damaged and captured) (5, captured) (6, captured)
27 - 122mm D-30 howitzer 2A18: (1, destroyed) (2, abandoned) (3, abandoned) (4, 5, 6 and 7, captured) (8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18, captured) (19, 20, 21 and 22, captured) (23, captured) (24, captured) (25, captured) (26, captured) (27, captured)
25 - 152mm 2A65 Msta-B howitzer: (1, destroyed by Bayraktar TB2) (2, destroyed by Bayraktar TB2) (3, destroyed by Bayraktar TB2) (4, 5, 6 and 7, destroyed) (8, destroyed) (9, destroyed) (10 and 11, destroyed) (12, damaged by Bayraktar TB2) (13, damaged by Bayraktar TB2) (14 and 15, damaged) (16, abandoned) (17, captured) (18, captured) (19, captured) (20, captured) (21, captured) (22, captured) (23, captured) (24, captured) (25, captured)
Self-Propelled Artillery (104, of which destroyed: 44, damaged: 2, abandoned: 16, captured: 41)
7 - 120mm 2S9 Nona: (1, destroyed) (2, destroyed) (3, abandoned) (4, captured) (5, captured) (6, captured) (7, captured)
1 - 120mm 2S23 Nona-SVK: (1, captured)
2 - 120mm 2S34 Khosta: (1, captured) (2, captured)
11 - 122mm 2S1 Gvozdika: (1, destroyed) (2, destroyed) (3, destroyed) (4, destroyed) (5, destroyed) (6, destroyed) (7, destroyed) (8, abandoned) (9, captured) (10, captured) (11, captured)
29 - 152mm 2S3 Akatsiya: (1, destroyed) (2, destroyed) (3, destroyed) (4, destroyed) (5, destroyed) (6, destroyed) (7, destroyed) (8, destroyed) (9, destroyed) (10, destroyed) (11, destroyed) (12, destroyed) (13, destroyed) (14, damaged) (15, abandoned) (16, abandoned) (17, abandoned) (18, abandoned) (19, abandoned) (20, abandoned) (21 and 22, captured) (23, captured) (24, captured) (25, captured) (26, captured) (27, captured) (28, captured) (29, captured)
50 - 152mm 2S19 Msta-S: (1, destroyed) (2, destroyed) (3, abandoned and destroyed) (4, destroyed) (5, destroyed) (6, destroyed) (7, destroyed) (8, destroyed) (9, destroyed) (10, destroyed) (11 destroyed) (12, destroyed) (13, destroyed) (14, destroyed) (15, destroyed) (16, destroyed) (17, destroyed) (18, destroyed) (19, destroyed) (20, destroyed) (21 and 22, abandoned and destroyed) (23, damaged and abandoned) (24, abandoned) (25, abandoned) (26, abandoned) (27, abandoned) (28, abandoned) (29 and 30, abandoned) (31, abandoned) (32, captured) (33, captured) (34, captured) (35, captured) (36, captured) (37, captured) (38, captured) (39, captured) (40, captured) (41, captured) (42, captured) (43, captured) (44, captured) (45, captured) (46, captured) (47, captured) (48, captured) (49, captured) (50, captured)
3 - 152mm 2S33 Msta-SM2: (1, captured) (2, captured) (3, captured)
1 - Unknown SPG: (1, damaged)
Multiple Rocket Launchers (62, of which destroyed: 29, damaged: 1, abandoned: 4, captured: 28)
41 - 122mm BM-21 ‘Grad’: (1, destroyed) (2 and 3, destroyed) (4, destroyed) (5, destroyed) (6, destroyed) (7 and 8, destroyed) (9, destroyed) (10, destroyed) (11, destroyed) (12, destroyed) (13, destroyed) (14, destroyed) (15, destroyed) (16 and 17, destroyed) (18, abandoned) (19, abandoned) (20, abandoned) (21, abandoned and destroyed) (22, damaged and captured) (23, damaged and captured) (24, damaged and captured) (25, captured) (26 and 27, captured) (28, captured) (29, captured) (30, captured) (31, captured) (32, captured) (33, captured) (34, captured) (35, captured) (36, captured) (37, captured) (38, captured) (39, captured) (40, captured) (41, captured)
11 - 220mm BM-27 ‘Uragan’: (1, destroyed by Bayraktar TB2) (2, destroyed) (3, destroyed) (4, destroyed) (5, 6 and 7, destroyed) (8, captured and destroyed) (9, captured and destroyed) (10, captured) (11, captured)
5 - 122mm 2B17 Tornado-G: (1, destroyed) (2, destroyed) (3, destroyed) (4, captured) (6, captured)
6 - 220mm TOS-1A: (1, damaged) (2, abandoned) (3, damaged and captured) (4, damaged and captured) (5, captured) (6, captured)
UA losses:
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-ukrainian.html
“Putin wanted a “new generation war” where the damage to the infrastructure and civilian population is none to minimal in my opinion.”
Obviously you have not clouded your rosy tinted glasses by viewing the many photos shown of vast areas of total or severe destruction of whole towns, cities and apartment buildings. Since Putin’s main goal has always been the oil and gas reserves under eastern Ukraine and around Crimea, he doesn’t give a sh^t for what is above ground. For a while he seemed to want to save the Mariupol steel plant, but apparently has given that up. Instead he wants to be able to celebrate the May 9th victory with some staged theatrics in Mariupol, so get rid of that steel mill no matter what!
What kind of American and human being are you to suggest that Putin’s coming in “full force” is going to be a “success.” If he succeeds, it is going to be a great TRAGEDY. Long after Putin is gone, the Russian people will have to suffer from the international hatred Putin’s inhumanity has created.
“US artillery is, generally speaking, out-ranged by Russian artillery.”
US Paladin self-propelled 155mm howitzers with the last generation rounds reached out with pin-point accuracy to ~40km but more commonly ~30km.
The Extended Range Cannon Artillery Program (ECRA) in concert with the Paladin Integrated Management system is in active deployment and can reliably reach out and touch someone with pin-point accuracy at 70km. Testing has pushed that envelope out to 85km in ideal conditions.
The old Excalibur anti-tank rounds could kill any tank model at 25km to 30km. The new Merlin rounds fire ballistically and use a solid rocket in their descent stage to penetrate armor over 1m thick or steel reinforced concrete over 8m thick. These are the rounds that can reach out and kill tanks and armor at 70km.
Okay, sniper rifles are impossible then:)
Meanwhile, the Biden administration is working to take away washers, dryers and ovens from Americans to protect the Urf.
Are you talking about Iraq war, right?
What does tl;dr mean? I read a while ago that oligarchs became rich diverting the big money in contracts, and the little guys got less poor by stealing the electronic components (chips) from military equipment and reselling them.
tl;dr = Too long; didn’t read
And you’re right about the theft. A lot of military components have been stolen and sold on the black market by maintenance crews and the troops themselves. That’s a big part of why we don’t see sophisticated weaponry in use by the Soviets.
Russia is so SCREWED!! They will be losing 4-5 millions of barrels of production later this year. Prices won’t be high forever and then they will be feeling extreme pain with that revenue loss. A 3rd world bleep hole country.
Meanwhile, the Russians in Ukraine are stealing toilets, washers, dryers, and ovens from the apartments and homes they have destroyed and sending them home. What a great job Putin has done in developing a vibrant, people centered economy for the Russian people. They’ve come a long way from when they were stealing toilets and sending them home from Berlin in 1945. I guess they weren’t stealing so much in the way of appliances because many places had no electricity then. Wow, real progress to be enjoyed using stolen loot.
You're claiming an artillery piece can achieve the same accuracy over dozens of kilometers in indirect fire, which means the actual travelled distance is much longer.
The most accurate artillery pieces are direct fire tank guns. Even the British rifled barrels or US fin stabilized shells are not accurate to 1/2 an inch over a couple of kilometers.
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