My #590 was a response to FLT-bird #594, additional addressee wardaddy. You were not included. "I hope the negroes' fidelity will be duly rewarded and regret that we are not in a position to aid and protect them. There is, I observe, a controversy which I regret as to allowing negroes to testify in court. From brother Joe [Joseph Davis], many years ago, I derived the opinion that they should be made competent witnesses, the jury judging of their credibility. (Jefferson Davis: Private Letters 1823-1889, selected and edited by Hudson Strode, New York: De Capo Press, 1995, reprint, p. 188)Compare that to this statement. "My own convictions as to negro slavery are strong. It has its evils and abuses...We recognize the negro as God and God's Book and God's Laws, in nature, tell us to recognize him - our inferior, fitted expressly for servitude...You cannot transform the negro into anything one-tenth as useful or as good as what slavery enables them to be."
I would first note that you failed to provide a source, a date, or identify who said it. It could have been Lincoln. It was Lincoln who said, "I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will for ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality." Where he had jurisdiction to do so, Davis actually made them competent witnesses and jurors.
CW 3:14-15: First Lincoln-Douglas Debate
Before proceeding, let me say I think I have no prejudice against the Southern people. They are just what we would be in their situation. If slavery did not now exist amongst them, they would not introduce it. If it did now exist amongst us, we should not instantly give it up. This I believe of the masses north and south. Doubtless there are individuals, on both sides, who would not hold slaves under any circumstances; and others who would gladly introduce slavery anew, if it were out of existence. We know that some southern men do free their slaves, go north, and become tip-top abolitionists; while some northern ones go south, and become most cruel slave-masters.When southern people tell us they are no more responsible for the origin of slavery, than we; I acknowledge the fact. When it is said that the institution exists, and that it is very difficult to get rid of it, in any satisfactory way, I can understand and appreciate the saying. I surely will not blame them for not doing what I should not know how to do myself. If all earthly power were given me, I should not know what to do, as to the existing institution. My first impulse would be to free all the slaves, and send them to Liberia—to their own native land. But a moment's reflection would convince me, that whatever of high hope, (as I think there is) there may be in this, in the long run, its sudden execution is impossible. If they were all landed there in a day, they would all perish in the next ten days; and there are not surplus shipping and surplus money enough in the world to carry them there in many times ten days. What then? Free them all, and keep them among us as underlings? Is it quite certain that this betters their condition? I think I would not hold one in slavery, at any rate; yet the point is not clear enough to me to denounce people upon. What next? Free them, and make them politically and socially, our equals? My own feelings will not admit of this; and if mine would, we well know that those of the great mass of white people will not. Whether this feeling accords with justice and sound judgment, is not the sole question, if indeed, it is any part of it. A universal feeling, whether well or ill-founded, can not be safely disregarded. We can not, then, make them equals.
CW 3:145-46; Fourth Lincoln-Douglas Debate.
While I was at the hotel to-day an elderly gentleman called upon me to know whether I was really in favor of producing a perfect equality between the negroes and white people. [Great laughter.] While I had not proposed to myself on this occasion to say much on that subject, yet as the question was asked me I thought I would occupy perhaps five minutes in saying something in regard to it. I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]—that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will for ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.
CW 3:179; Fourth Lincoln-Douglas Debate
Judge Douglas has said to you that he has not been able to get from me an answer to the question whether I am in favor of negro-citizenship. So far as I know, the Judge never asked me the question before. [Applause.] He shall have no occasion to ever ask it again, for I tell him very frankly that I am not in favor of negro citizenship. [Renewed applause.] This furnishes me an occasion for saying a few words upon the subject. I mentioned in a certain speech of mine which has been printed, that the Supreme Court had decided that a negro could not possibly be made a citizen, and without saying what was my ground of complaint in regard to that, or whether I had any ground of complaint, Judge Douglas has from that thing manufactured nearly every thing that he ever says about my disposition to produce an equality between the negroes and the white people. [Laughter and applause.] If any one will read my speech, he will find I mentioned that as one of the points decided in the course of the Supreme Court opinions, but I did not state what objection I had to it. But Judge Douglas tells the people what my objection was when I did not tell them myself. [Loud applause and laughter.] Now my opinion is that the different States have the power to make a negro a citizen under the Constitution of the United States if they choose. The Dred Scott decision decides that they have not that power. If the State of Illinois had that power I should be opposed to the exercise of it. [Cries of "good,'' "good,'' and applause.] That is all I have to say about it.
Lincoln was not bashful about saying what he wanted:
"Resolved, That the elective franchise should be kept pure from contamination by the admission of colored votes."
Representative Lincoln voted for that in Illinois, January 5, 1836."In our greedy chase to make profit of the Negro, let us beware, lest we 'cancel and tear to pieces' even the white man's charter of freedom"
Lincoln, October 16, 1854, Peoria, Illinois, CW 2:276"Whether slavery shall go into Nebraska, or other new territories, is not a matter of exclusive concern to the people who may go there. The whole nation is interested that the best use shall be made of these territories. We want them for the homes of free white people."
Lincoln, October 16, 1854, Peoria, Illinois, CW 2:268"Have we no interest in the free Territories of the United States—that they should be kept open for the homes of free white people?"
Lincoln, August 27, 1856, Kalamazoo, Michigan, CW 2:363"Is it not rather our duty to make labor more respectable by preventing all black competition, especially in the territories?"
Lincoln, August 31, 1858, Carlinville, Illinois, CW 3:79"Now irrespective of the moral aspect of this question as to whether there is a right or wrong in enslaving a negro, I am still in favor of our new Territories being in such a condition that white men may find a home—may find some spot where they can better their condition—where they can settle upon new soil and better their condition in life. [Great and continued cheering.] I am in favor of this not merely, (I must say it here as I have elsewhere,) for our own people who are born amongst us, but as an outlet for free white people everywhere, the world over—in which Hans and Baptiste and Patrick, and all other men from all the world, may find new homes and better their conditions in life. [Loud and long continued applause.] Lincoln, October 15, 1858, Alton, Illinois, CW 3:312 (emphasis as in original)
"You can as easily argue the color out of the negroes' skin. Like the 'bloody hand'' you may wash it, and wash it, the red witness of guilt still sticks, and stares horribly at you." Lincoln, October 16, 1854, Peoria, Illinois, CW 2:276
"I am fully aware that there is a text in some Bibles that is not in mine. Professional abolitionists have made more use of it, than of any passage in the Bible. It came, however, as I trace it, from Saint Voltaire, and was baptized by Thomas Jefferson, and since almost universally regarded as canonical authority 'All men are born free and equal.' This is a genuine coin in the political currency of our generation. I am sorry to say that I have never seen two men of whom it is true. But I must admit I never saw the Siamese twins, and therefore will not dogmatically say that no man ever saw a proof of this sage aphorism.'' Lincoln, Eulogy on Henry Clay, July 6, 1852, CW 2:130-31
"Cast into life where slavery was already widely spread and deeply seated, he [Henry Clay] did not perceive, as I think no wise man has perceived, how it [slavery] could be at once eradicated, without producing a greater evil, even to the cause of human liberty itself." Lincoln, Eulogy on Henry Clay, July 6, 1852, CW 2:130.
Damn, Lincoln said slavery could not be eradicated at once without producing a greater evil. An evil greater to the cause of human liberty than slavery. Whatever might that have been?
Do you have a direct answer for that, or are you going to continue to flood FR with text from book after book?
I would first note that you failed to provide a source, a date, or identify who said it.
Notice I didn't enter his name, only part of the quote.
Now let's look at the snippets you posted from the Lincoln Douglas debates.
CW 3:14-15: First Lincoln-Douglas Debate
I don't see where you're going with that. Lincoln acknowledged that if "we" (the North) had slaves we might want to defend it, and if the South didn't have slavery than they would oppose it. It was a fair appraisal, and one that should make us all think about if we would have been any better.
CW 3:145-46; Fourth Lincoln-Douglas Debate.
CW 3:179; Fourth Lincoln-Douglas Debate
The 4th debate was held in Illinois, which was a Northern state that outlawed slavery in name only. It was one of the worst offenders when it came to "black codes". He was talking out of both sides of his mouth. If you read how the audience responded you can see why.
As it turned out, the South didn't buy it. For example, from the Georgia declaration of secession, "They entered the Presidential contest again in 1860 and succeeded. The prohibition of slavery in the Territories, hostility to it everywhere, the equality of the black and white races". It was one of the dynamics he and abolitionists had to deal with. Frederick Douglas later acknowledged this, so I'll post his quote again.
"Viewed from the genuine abolition ground, Mr. Lincoln seemed tardy, cold, dull, and indifferent; but measuring him by the sentiment of his country, a sentiment he was bound as a statesman to consult, he was swift, zealous, radical, and determined."
When he and the Republicans got the power they needed to abolish slavery in 1865, they did it.
Various quotes from the 1850's.
See my reply above. I don't deny he said some repulsive things, but he had to deal with people that held those views to get things done.