Posted on 11/10/2020 5:43:42 AM PST by Kaslin
Yes. A virtually unreported factor in decision making by 1945 was the war weariness of the American people. It also weighed in the decision to use the atom bomb in Japan rather than a bloody protracted invasion.
The Soviets did, indeed, have some awesome equipment near the end of the war...and in large numbers.
But the production of a lot of it was dependent upon supplies of critical materials from the West, as well as on no one bombing their mines, factories and logistical lines of communication. WRT the latter, the 8th Air Force and elements of the Pacific air forces would have done immense damage to the Soviets.
Their logistics also SUCKED. A modern army requires food and fuel - and part of Patton’s plans for the Soviets was to utterly destroy their fuel transportation system, stranding all of that great equipment in the field after the first engagement. We’d have been able to mop up a few million guys with small arms fairly easily in comparison.
“Unlike other generals, Patton was an “aggressive thruster,” Hanson explains.”
And maybe a slow learner. Germany’s “aggressive thrusts” into the Soviet Union had just failed completely, despite Barbarosa being unleashed when the SU was unprepared, its military poorly equipped and even worse led. In 1944, Soviet war production, military size, momentum, and sheer brutal force were at a peak. The US was still at war with Japan, and the US population was eager to bring our forces home, not convert our “wonderful” Russian allies into new monsters to slay. Patton was like a queen on a chess board, but winning requires all the pieces.
You are talking nonsense.
The Germans were already losing at Stalingrad at the same time as Torch and US strategic bombing of Germany did not begin until March 4, 1943, after Stalingrad. After Stalingrad, the defeat of Germany was certain, just maybe not by May 1945.
The only way Stalin maybe loses is without Lend-Lease as well. Stalin was able to commit everything at Stalingrad because LL resupply was beginning to flow.
True. Germany was defeated in Russia with Allied logistics and Russian cannon fodder.
I don’t think we could reach Soviet industry even from bases in Germany. Maybe B-29s could do it.
As for destroying Soviet logistics, it is important to remember that the enemy gets a vote. The Germans had been trying to this for the entire war and never succeeded.
Did they fail because of the tactics or the overall strategy?
The failure to drive on Moscow until the summer had passed for example.
The British were already bombing Germany drawing away fighters and AA guns that could be used on the Eastern Front.
IF the Germans could have won at Kursk in 43 that changes the complexion of the war in Russia.
IF Germany could have concentrated all its resources on Russia they could have defeated them.
It's hard to take on the US, UK and USSR if your Germany. The industrial production just isn't there for the Germans.
True.
All of these discussions presume the American public, and soldiers, would have been willing to engage in a new war.
I don't think that was going to happen in 45.
“And maybe a slow learner. Germany’s “aggressive thrusts” into the Soviet Union had just failed completely, despite Barbarosa being unleashed when the SU was unprepared, its military poorly equipped and even worse led.”
Yes, there are limits to aggressive thrusts, but that isn’t the cause of the Germans’ failure to defeat the Soviets in 1941.
“...After Stalingrad, the defeat of Germany was certain, just maybe not by May 1945...”
After Stalingrad, the Germans had a remarkable victory in the retaking of Kharkov. There were certainly chances for a longer stalemate on the Eastern Front but Hitler kept stripping away divisions to gamble in other theatres like Italy.
If the USA had not supplied the USSR with materiel the USSR would have collapsed in 1942/43
If humanitarian assistance was given but lesser military aid then the USSR would have collapsed.
Bluntly, without American manufacturing prowess, the USSR stood no chance against the Germans
Even with those, the Left’s ability to do much of anything was tiny.
“I don’t think we could reach Soviet industry even from bases in Germany. Maybe B-29s could do it.
As for destroying Soviet logistics, it is important to remember that the enemy gets a vote. The Germans had been trying to this for the entire war and never succeeded”
WRT Soviet logistics, the very fact that much/most of their production was in the Urals was a weakness - it had to travel 2,000 miles to get to the front lines. Again, our larger and more effective air force would have put a serious crimp in their ability to reinforce the tip of their spear.
But, of course, the biggest weakness they had was petroleum. We knew exactly where their oil fields and production facilities were in the Caucasus, and planes based in either Italy or Egypt could have utterly destroyed them (especially if the strike was done as part of the initial surprise attack.
I suggest YOU read more.
Isolationism was massive and needed NO help from the left, at all. It was so big, the British infiltrated our polling orgs to try and change opinion (Thomas Mahl, “Dangerous Deception”). They failed.
The left was real, tiny, and irrelevant.
No they absolutely did not.
The most influential of them was Harry Dexter White, who “may” (evidence is WAY out on this) have delayed a gold shipment to Chaing that “may” have caused desertions in his army. But Chaing lost to Mao long before that.
Others wrote stuff in magazines, that “may” have affected the opinions of a few elites. But the fact is, their influence was overwhelmingly aimed at China, and there wasn’t a whole lot we could do there.
One wonders how Stalin would have responded during a drive eastward by Patton after seeing Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
The Soviets weren’t going to leave unless pushed out, period.
There is NO WW II historian, including Victor Davis Hanson, who would say otherwise. The Soviets only peacefully left two places: Austria, where, when Austrians threatened to pull down a statue of (I forget, either Lenin or Stalin) the Soviets threatened to come in again; and Iran, where Truman threatened them with the bomb.
They had 200 DIVISIONS. We had a total of 86 in both the European and Asian theaters. In 1946 the US wanted the troops home asap. Even Stephen Ambrose, in his book “Band of Brothers,” noted that for the first time in the war, American soldiers started to become interested in medals and decorations because transfer to the Pacific Front was a point system toward which medals counted. Enough decorations, they wouldn’t transfer you.
“Isolationism was massive and needed NO help from the left, at all. It was so big, the British infiltrated our polling orgs to try and change opinion (Thomas Mahl, “Dangerous Deception”). They failed.
The left was real, tiny, and irrelevant.”
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