Posted on 08/30/2020 5:10:51 AM PDT by Kaslin
Wisconsin recently charged Kyle Rittenhouse with first degree murder for killing two people who were, from what I can see from the videos, attacking him with weapons. Whether Rittenhouse should have been in Kenosha in the first place, and with a weapon a 17-year old cannot legally carry in public, is a separate issue for courts of law to decide. The question at hand is however why he was charged with murder while his surviving alleged assailants were, as far as I know, not charged with anything.
This leads to the need to educate potential jurors (i.e. all citizens who are eligible to serve on juries) proactively about important self-defense principles. This must happen before they are called for jury duty because it is illegal to do so afterward. Jurors need to understand the simple concept of din rodef, "the law of the pursuer." This gives defense attorneys a single word – rodef -- to explain the concept if jurors are not already familiar with it.
Rodef = One Who Pursues
A rodef (plural rodfim) is somebody who pursues somebody else with the objective of causing death or serious physical injury. Din rodef entitles the one pursued, or a bystander, to use reasonable force, up to and including deadly force, to stop the rodef from completing the intended violent crime. The principle is actually very similar to most modern laws. Deadly force cannot be used if lesser force will suffice, and the rodef ceases to be a rodef the instant he desists from his violent actions. Din rodef is also reflected by the modern adages (in the context of a fight or argument) such as "Never follow anybody into the parking lot" and "Never follow the other guy home" because these are prima facie evidence of malicious and violent intent.
(Excerpt) Read more at americanthinker.com ...
It seems to me that he was under age he carried the rifle illegally and is therefor guilty and deserves what he gets.
His parent should have made sure he can carry the rifle legally. Not doing so makes them guilty
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Not so fast—From your Wiki source:
Furthermore, minors that are 16 years of age or older can openly carry long guns, provided they are not considered “short-barreled rifles” or “short-barreled shotguns” and are not otherwise prohibited from possession of firearms.[8][9][10] A license is not required unless in a taxpayer-owned building or within 1000 feet of school property and not on private property.[11] Well-he seems to be ok here-he’s 17.
WI statute 948.60[37]-Age limit 18
Exceptions/Defenses to prosecution under this statute:
-1. Target practice under the supervision of an adult
Members of armed forces or police under 18 in the line of duty
-2. Hunting (either with an adult or having passed hunter’s safety)
-3. The minor was 16 years of age or older and possessed or carried either a rifle with a barrel length of 16 inches or longer, or a shotgun with a barrel length of 18 inches or longer.[38]
#3 seems to apply and Kyle is 17 which is over 16.
Either you didn’t read all of it, or you left something out of your statement of the rules.
Furthermore:
In addition, At least one source indicates Rittenhouse’s father may be a police officer in or near Antioch. Pictures from various social media accounts appear to show Rittenhouse handling firearms (particularly AR platforms) from a young age (7-10 years).
The Antioch Fire Department acknowledged that Rittenhouse was a “Fire Protection Cadet” at one point.
According to the Grayslake Police Department Rittenhouse was a member of the joint Public Safety Cadet Program for the Lindenhurst, Grayslake, and Hainesville police departments.
The program offered ride-along sessions as well as firearms training, though it is not clear how extensive these elements were or to what extent Rittenhouse participated.
Perhaps don’t be so quick to convict a young person and condemn his parents, when all the facts are not established.
Innocent until proven guilty-used to be the standard and still is supposed to be.
Yeah right... thanks for your perspective on this... To me it still sounds just like an armchair quarterback parroting leftist media talking points. We all know how reasonable the leftist media sounds while spouting nonsense. They too are just so wonderful and enlighened.
I have a grandson who is 19. He is currently out fighting wildfires in high heat in difficult and remote terrain. He started out like Kyle Rittenhouse as an explorer scout in a program that his other grandfather, a career army combat veteran and small town fire chief ran. My grandson was also introduced to firearms and firearm safety at an early age and is an excellent marksman. Like many young men he has a sense of invincibility that makes it more likely that he will take risks that put his life in jeopardy. It is not hard for me to imagine him getting into a situation like this.
It took a long time for me to get over taking risks that I should not have. In my 30s married with a wife and kid, I was standing on the edge of a cliff holding up my hang glider by the control bar looking into fog that was completely obscuring my view of the terrain below. I was not thinking about my dependents, instead I got impatient and thought, "I am here to fly not wait around all day", so when I caught a glimpse of the sun I ran a few steps, leaped, and dropped into what turned out to be a thick fog bank.
The nose of my glider dropped and I fell hundreds of feet with a sensation of almost complete weightlessness without being able to see a thing. I made no attempt to even touch the control bar lest I turn myself into the cliff. When the glider picked up enough speed it nosed up and popped out into glorious sunshine; when I looked back at the cliff all I could see was a thick cloud that completely obscured it.
It was foolhardy, stupid, and illegal but even as my glider and I were dropping through the fog without being able to see a thing, it never occurred to me that I might be about to die. I have done a lot of stupid and risky things in my life. Unfortunately, a lot of male members from both sides of my grandson's family tree had their lives cut short by taking risks that they should not have.
So I know that he is out running around through burning forests with an ax and shovel, knowing that he like myself likely has no real sense that his life is in jeopardy. 15 minutes before Kyle Rittenhouse ended up in a crisis situation, the police gave him water and thanked him for what he was doing. Neither they nor he had any idea that the mob and three felons were about to try and kill him. The police and Kyle were there, you weren't. They misread the situation obviously... But you and the leftist media's after the fact arm chair quarterbacking is about as worthless as it gets.
The events of the fateful riot were recorded with video by multiple people. These days a high percentage of the people participating are videoing themselves and others while participating in criminal behavior. Crazy but true. But this will help Kyle's legal team paint an accurate picture of the sequence of events.
He has an excellent legal team and the support of his family and community. His chances of being convicted of anything serious is close to zero. All of his actions that day are known, up to and including the shootings. They show no intent to kill anyone. He called 911 and attempted to stay on scene at the first shooting. There are witnesses and video. What they show is a young man doing the best he thought that he could to help.
Maybe he should be looking over his shoulder for the rest of his life but he probably will not be. If he was someone who frets about everything all the time... he would not have been there in the first place. He is likely someone who is just happy that after he dropped into darkness that his nose is now in glorious sunshine.
He likely will have some emotions to deal-a kid like that doesn't actually WANT to kill people. Fact is it was them or him.
For SELF DEFENSE-Have the reasonable belief: that they or another person, are in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm, and that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent said harm.
Here's what one lawyer with an interest in CQB said:
LEGAL ISSUES – Lawyer's opinion(not from there)—”review of the Engagements suggests that it is difficult to argue that Rittenhouse was not of such reasonable belief. Very Clear cut in terms of exhaustion of alternatives short of the use of deadly force and restraint” that the author has encountered.
“One (Grosskreutz) melted down even though he had ample means to continue the fight. Grosskreutz is only alive today because of Rittenhouse’s amazing (perhaps even naive) restraint. I don't know of any tactical instructor that wouldn't counsel a follow-up shot to center mass on Grosskreutz immediately after the arm-strike. “
“Amusing aside: Interview with McGinnis by Detective Cepress:
“McGinnis stated that he had handled many ARs and [Rittenhouse] was not handling the weapon very well.”
Based on the videos I've seen Rittenhouse is one of the best weapons handlers under pressure I've ever seen. So much for McGinnis’ credibility.”
The most valid argument I've heard for his presence in Kenosha was that he was guarding a friend's business. If this was a business that a close friend owned and solicited help for, and if the legalities of his possessing an AR-15 were all covered, then I would concede that his presence guarding the business of a close friend or family member could be an acceptable reason for being in Kenosha.
But the moment he walked away from the business (as he did), then he was setting himself up for a disaster; this was Christopher Robin stepping off into Stalingrad. NOTHING positive could come out of this. (If stating this is being an armchair quarterback, keep in mind that he got the better of all three of his assailants and I'm still critical of him.) (Although I'm probably more critical of the AR-15 owner who let him out of sight.)
Is it possible to have the opinion that Rittenhouse behaved commendably once he was under attack but stupidly before he found himself under attack?
Judging from the comments here, it seems to draw down to the usual black-and-white (no, not skin color) lines of American politics; if you don't think Rittenhouse was 100% correct from beginning to end, well, then you must be a Marxist.
Is it possible to have the opinion that Rittenhouse behaved commendably once he was under attack but stupidly before he found himself under attack?
Judging from the comments here, it seems to draw down to the usual black-and-white (no, not skin color) lines of American politics; if you don’t think Rittenhouse was 100% correct from beginning to end, well, then you must be a Marxist.
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Well, maybe NOT stupidly. That’s such a loaded word. I would prefer to say he likely made some tactical mistakes. He was with a group that included adults, and his purpose was to help-so some of whatever happened falls on them too.
His background is such that you would expect him to voluntarily agree to help when he was asked, which he did. He did not travel there to gawk at the riot. He went to his job as a life guard, then helped scrub graffiti. Then answered a call for help to protect property and help injured people.
I saw a video where one of those adults interrupted an interview with a reporter and instructed him to use his EMT skills to help some injured people. He did not direct anyone else to go with Kyle. Kyle obeyed.
Attending to the injured is how he got separated from the group. Perhaps the adults should have had a buddy go with him. Perhaps he should have asked the adult if someone could go with him. Lesson learned hopefully.
Kyle and the members of the group can be heard interacting with local police who indicate their appreciation for the group’s presence. If it was so stupid for him to be there, why wouldn’t the cops tell him he should go home-or one of the other adults?
He allowed no less than three attacks from the rear which resulted in physical contact. Kyle was lucky that none of these attacks disabled him or rendered him helpless in the face of the pursuing mob. I Hope he realizes this tactical lesson.
After he shot the guy in the arm, from a tactical standpoint, he should have shot again center mass to end the threat. Missing Bicep Guy, could very well have done something to harm Kyle, instead of screaming and calling for a medic.
Another potential lesson, but it does show that he was not just looking to kill someone, even though that guy likely would have killed Kyle with no remorse.
I just hope missing bicep guy and his thug friends don’t try to take revenge on Kyle.
And no I don’t think Kyle acted stupidly. No more stupidly than the adults he was with-who could have told him to go home they could handle it.
And certainly less stupid that the Demshicvik governments that are allowing so much violence that normal people feel the need to do the job the police and national guard should be doing. Especially since POTUS has repeatedly offered help and resources.
If any one is acting stupid-it’s the Dem Governors and Mayors who are failing in one of their most important jobs. I only hope that his generation has many more Kyles. Our country needs them-and we don’t need Antifa/BLM/CPUSA etc.
Attending to the injured is how he got separated from the group. Perhaps the adults should have had a buddy go with him. Perhaps he should have asked the adult if someone could go with him. Lesson learned hopefully.
I think this sums it up.
One sees the NYPD at the tourist sites and near the bus and train stations in Manhattan with the AR-15s but they are most certainly NEVER alone.
One would be correct to point out that the NYPD is filled with people older than Kyle and people with extensive firearms training, but I would still like to think that because Kyle would probably not have had the wherewithal to realize that anyone alone with an AR-15 in Kenosha that night would be a target, an older person in that group would have been able to realize that and have someone go with Kyle.
Anyway, maybe somebody will learn something for the next time.
I meant to ping you to this post :
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/3879132/posts?page=146#146
Kyle’s attorney was on Tuckers tonight. He gave a blow by blow. Watch for the rerun later tonight if you missed it.
That meme is worth a thousand words.
This is my understanding of the law that I got from various sources, but I’m not a lawyer. One of the sources I read was a lawyer and they agreed with your interpretation.
Are you by any chance a lawyer?
Thanks. I’ll check it out-I did miss it.
Buddy system is an old concept-you’d think the adults would practice it-especially when a kid’s involved.
I am not a lawyer, so take whatever I say as just commentary based on reading.
ok thanks.
Thank you very much for the ping to your previous very informative post. Kyle is most likely not going to be convicted of anything. But he very well may be in danger from leftist thugs; my guess is that he, his friends and family will be armed and keeping there eyes open for suspicious characters.
The thing that amazes me on this and other threads on this incident is the number of Freepers who continue to spout out the Main Stream Media talking points despite accurate info being available. When you try to enlighten them they don’t even miss a beat and continue to immediately spout off their uninformed nonsense, hurling insults and blaming the victim. What are they even doing here?
Thank you very much for the ping to your previous very informative post. Kyle is most likely not going to be convicted of anything. But he very well may be in danger from leftist thugs; my guess is that he, his friends and family will be armed and keeping there eyes open for suspicious characters.
The thing that amazes me on this and other threads on this incident is the number of Freepers who continue to spout out the Main Stream Media talking points despite accurate info being available. When you try to enlighten them they don’t even miss a beat and continue to immediately spout off their uninformed nonsense, hurling insults and blaming the victim. What are they even doing here?
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Well, I heard his lawyer say on Tucker tonight that the thugs were trying to locate him in prison in order to kill him.
They will be after his family too I have no doubt. The US has been under a huge PSYOP/brainwashing for years. Infiltration of every institution and social media/chat rooms whatever has been going on for years too.
Some people have been effectively brainwashed, and others are just infiltrators. Some just have a need to make them selves feel superior by putting down someone else. And some are just clueless. We have people in this country that still believe in Marx and Communism-these are some guesses as to why.
That’s life in USA where several generations have been fed lots of lies and real history has been lost down the memory hole—we truly seem to be living in the country described by Orwell’s 1984.
-Rioters are “peaceful protestors”
-Patriots defending themselves are terrorists
-Democrats allow this violence and call it Trump’s America
-Press condemns everything bad as being DJT’s fault
-Bernie supporter tries to kill Pubbies at Ballpark-crickets
-Press blames POTUS for deaths of thugs attacking a kid(like it’s a bad thing that the kid acted in self defense)
It reminds me of Brown Shirts, and the red guards combined. This defund the police, and community policing-that’s gonna be brown shirts or taliban like stuff eventually. Once the real police are replaced by thugs, there will be no peace anywhere this happens.
The sixties were bad for the cities. There was a time when we averaged 4 bombings per day. Yet, the rural areas and small town had life as usual. I am afraid that won’t be the case this time.
In July, we had BLM visit our small town of less than 3000. Also neighboring towns. We live 75 miles south of St. Louis. I figure it was a scouting trip-to scope things out. When they are done with destroying the city, they move to the suburbs, and then the rural areas.
Thanks for the ping. I listened and taped it. Thugs are already looking to find where he is in prison and kill him.
https://www.mrctv.org/videos/just-facts-rittenhouse-lawyer-shreds-media-narrative-kenosha-shooting
Link to Tucker’s interview with the Attorney.
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