>>Kalamata: quoting Shermer: "Prothero noticed that global warming skeptics and climate deniers employed the same tactics as creationists: focusing on minor anomalies in the data, interpreting normal scientific debates as indications that mainstream science is flawed, and quote mining experts to make it sound as if they were saying something in support of their denialist cause."
>>Joe the Science Denier says, "I never heard of Prothero, but his point here is the same as mine: deniers use the same tactics. I do know how Holocaust deniers think because I debated some of them for many months, in a format similar to this one. I see those same tactics coming from Kalamata, so I know something is fishy here.
That quote was by your hero, Michael Shermer, who wrote the forward to a recent book written by his side-kick, Donald Prothero. Prothero is another one of those promoting the holocaust-enabling ideology of evolutionisn, as well as other far-left ideologies and scams, such as "climate-change". This is a link to a debate between Stephen Meyer and Richard Sternberg vs Donald Prothero and Michael Shermer. Prothero is the really goofy and nasty one:
Has Evolution Adequately Explained the Origins of Life?
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>>Joe the Science Denier says, "In Kalamata's defense, seriously: Holocaust deniers were vulgar, hate-filled people, insulting beyond anything allowable on Free Republic. In no way does Kalamata personally compare to them. But his tactics are the same, including personal disparagements. Nor do I find any rigorous honesty in Kalamata's own responses. When faced with the choice of a weak-but-honest answer, versus a strong-but-dishonest one, Kalamata invariably choses the latter. That makes you a propagandist, FRiend.
I have never personally met a holocaust denier; but it is hard to imagine anyone more nasty and vulgar than the evolutionism cult that posts on Youtube. It is possible some of them are also holocaust deniers, since they rabidly support the holocaust-enabling religion of evolutionism, like, you. They also lie like you, Alinsky Joe.
*******************
>>Kalamata: "You have some mighty strange heroes, Alinsky Joe."
>>Joe the Science Denier says, "Speaking of Alinsky, there's another name I don't remember hearing as recently as 20 years ago. Alinsky became much better known along with the rising political ambitions of his most famous disciple, Mrs. Clinton. But I don't remember mentioning "rules for radicals" to Holocaust deniers, though in hind-sight they seemingly "got it".
You should be very familiar with Alinsky. You use his tactics when your world-view is challenged.
*******************
>>Kalamata: "In that context, let's see if we can observe from Kalamata and others the basic "Rules for Deniers"? >>Joe the Science Denier says, "In that context, let's see if we can observe from Kalamata and others the basic "Rules for Deniers"?
>>Science Denier Rule#1: "First, foremost & always: ignore all data which contradicts your own claims.
Narrative: Science deniers, like Ken Miller and Eugenie Scott, ignore contradictory data, at first. But if the contradictory data doesn't go away, they recruit the Sword of the government to help suppress it. So, if the data will not go away, after repeated attempts at ignoring it, call in the federal troops.
>>Science Denier Rule#2: "Never accept normal word definitions, redefine any words to suit your own denial purposes, no need to be specific."
Narrative: Science deniers must continually reshuffle their vocabulary to stay "in business". For example, "divergent evolution" has morphed into "convergent evolution", "parallel evolution", "preadaptive evolution", and "reductive evolution" (and perhaps a few others), so that, no matter what happens, evolution is ALWAYS true.
>>Science Denier Rule#3: "Begin your presentation with a large collection of quotes & references -- some meticulously sourced, others mis-quotes, out of context & dubious provenance."
Narrative: The more accomplished science deniers use a large collection of quotes and references, like Michael Shermer in his books and lectures. The less accomplished resort to artistic renditions of "evidence", such as pictures and models of imaginary whale, horse, and embryo evolution.
>>Science Denier Rule#4: "Attack, attack, attack at your opponent's weakest arguments."
Narrative: If that fails -- if your opponent has no scientific weaknesses -- smear, slander, and accuse him of the most vile thing imaginable.
>>Science Denier Rule#5: "Equate defeat on his weakest points to defeat on every point -- "wrong on one = wrong on all."
Narrative: If he has no weaknesses, resort to the solution in Rule 6.
>>Science Denier Rule#6: "Accuse, accuse, accuse your opponent of whatever you're most guilty."
Narrative: Be careful. If you support the ideology that led to the holocaust, and there is no way anyone would believe his ideology led to the holocaust, if might be better to accuse him of something else, such as being a holocaust denier.
>>Science Denier Rule#7: "For examples, call him a denier, call science a religion, etc."
Narrative: Again, be careful. This tactic worked well on all Creation and Intelligent Design scientists until recently; but now, with new discoveries in the genome, and with no supporting discoveries in the fossil record from the time of Darwin until now, the more accomplished scientists can legitimately throw that back in your face. Choose your targets wisely.
>>Science Denier Rule#8: "If you have to lie, lie big and repeat your lie endlessly, never back down. OK to personally insult, disparage & malign."
Narrative: If your lies fail to silence him, and you have already labeled him a holocaust denier, you are on your own.
>>Science Denier Rule#9: "Guilt by association: if your opponent knows somebody who was wrong about something, then he is wrong about everything!
Narrative: This works well if used properly, but be certain the person he knows was actually wrong about something. If this fails, resort to Rule 8.
>>Science Denier Rule#10: "When all else fails, remember rule #1.
Narrative: Resort to the part about calling in the federal troops.
*******************
>>Joe the Science Denier says, "I admit, this may not be the complete list, but it's as good as I can do for right now. Near as I can tell, our propagandist Kalamata slavishly follows all these rules here.
LOL! They are not my rules. They are yours!
*******************
>>Kalamata: "Suppose you tell why any private entity would fund Origin of Life research?"
>>Joe the Science Denier says, "Miller-Urey was done at the University of Chicago, 1952, and California.
Who paid for it?
*******************
>>Joe the Science Denier says, "In October 2018, researchers at McMaster University announced the development of a new technology, called a Planet Simulator, to help study the origin of life on planet Earth and beyond.[117][118][119][120] It consists of a sophisticated climate chamber to study how the building blocks of life were assembled and how these prebiotic molecules transitioned into self-replicating RNA molecules.[117] "
Assuming the so-called prebiotic molecules magically organized into self-replicating RNA, how does the RNA replication occur without the assistance of protein polymerases?
*******************
>>Kalamata: "I am not buying for a minute that Alinsky Joe has ever debated a holocaust denier. He is a proven liar, not to mention being a rabid evolutionist. >>Joe the Science Denier says, "Frankly, I think he might be a closet holocaust denier making use of the “’Stop thief!’, first” misdirection tactic, like any well-trained Alinskite would do when push comes to shove."
Actually, I found that in another rule book, written up in a newspaper editorial, titled, "Rules for Changing a Limited Republican Government into an Unlimited Hereditary One":
"15. As it is not to be expected that the change of a republic into a monarchy, with the rapidity desired can be carried through without occasional suspicions and alarms, it will be necessary to be prepared for such events. The best general rule on the subject is to be taken from the example of crying "Stop thief" first - neither lungs nor pens must be spared in charging every man who whispers, or even thinks, that the revolution on foot is meditated, with being himself an enemy to the established government and meaning to overturn it. Let the charge be reiterated and reverberated till at last such confusion and uncertainty be produced that the people, being not able to find out where the truth lies, withdraw their attention from the contest." [Philiip Freneau, "Rules for Changing a Limited Republican Government into an Unlimited Hereditary One." National Gazette, 1792]
That is more than appropriate to explain today's usurpations and left-wing fanaticism. Those trying to destroy our nation and culture with the religions of evolutionism and socialism, frequently use the "Stop thief" first deception, as you do.
By the way, that newspaper was owned by James Madison and Thomas Jefferson.
*******************
>>Kalamata: "Alinsky Joe lives in the world of the logical gutter; and his hatred of Evangelical Christians and Messianic Jews is undeniable."
>>Joe the Science Denier says, "Gutter" -- now there's a word from the lexicon of Holocaust deniers. The rest is a total lie, I serve such people every day.
The word "gutter" appropriately identifies the filthy, foul-mouthed trash on Youtube and in other open forums who rabidly defend their religions of evolutionism and socialism (the religions that led to the holocaust and killing fields) with the most vile language and slander imaginable. Alinsky Joe uses all of those tactics, except for the filthy language, so far.
*******************
>>Kalamata: "His heros, the devout atheists, climate change propagandists, and abortion advocates, Michael Shermer and Donald Prothero, have taught him well how to become an expert in the use of slander and ad hominems against anyone who speaks out against his warped view of what is and what is not science.": >>Joe the Science Denier says, "More lies and from someone who pretends to defend the Bible, bearing false witness. Kalamata is obviously the trained propagandist here.
We know those fellows are devout atheists. We know both promote the climate-change scam. We know both condemn those who are anti-abortion. And we know that Alinsky Joe uses slander against those who oppose his world view. So where are the lies, Alinsky Joe?
*******************
>>Kalamata: "Substitute the phrase “holocaust denier” for “creationism denier” or “intelligent design denier” in the belligerant rants of any Darwin-hugging bigot, and you will see there is no difference in tactics: same insults, same slander, same nonsense."
>>Joe the Science Denier says, "Again we see Rule #5 above.
I think he intended to say, Rule #6.
*******************
>>Kalamata: "Kalamata: "Are you denying that Satan, the Father of Lies, doesn’t teach men to doubt the Word of God? It sounds like that is what you are saying."
>>Joe the Science Denier says, "I don't doubt God's Word, but I don't believe some of what you claim it means.
No doubt about that. But what about my question? Are you denying that Satan, the Father of Lies, doesn’t teach men to doubt the Word of God?
*******************
>>Kalamata: "I don’t see anything in the bible, or in observational science, that points to man evolving from an ape, or a frog. "
>>Joe the Science Denier says, "Genesis tells us that God began with dirt, does not say how He got to man.
God most certainly tells us how he did it, but in general terms any child can understand. First he tells us that he created man in his own image:
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." -- Gen 1:27 KJV
Later, he tells us that Jesus is the image of God:
"[Jesus,] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:" -- Col 1:15 KJV
So, man was first created in the image of Jesus, and THEN God breathed the breath of life into his NOSTRILS:
"And the Lord God formed MAN of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his NOSTRILS the breath of life; and man became a living soul." -- Gen 2:7 KJV
You can pretend the little microorganism your religion claims to be the first life was equipped with nostrils to receive that first breath, but nostrils on a microorganism is way too silly for any rational person to believe.
LOL! Evolution has to be the nuttiest theory ever imagined.
Mr. Kalamata
Kalamata:
">>Joe the Science Denier says..." Still Rules #5, #6 & #7, post #272.
Kalamata: "That quote was by your hero, Michael Shermer, "
I think Shermer did a good job debunking Holocaust deniers.
I don't know & can't speak for his other work.
Kalamata: "I have never personally met a holocaust denier; but it is hard to imagine anyone more nasty and vulgar than the evolutionism cult that posts on Youtube."
I don't know of them, can't speak for them.
I am certain Holocaust deniers would not be allowed to spew their filth on Free Republic.
Kalamata: "They also lie like you, Alinsky Joe."
I may sometimes be mistaken, but never deliberately lie.
Kalamata: "You should be very familiar with Alinsky.
You use his tactics when your world-view is challenged."
That is Rules #5. #6 & #7.
Kalamata on Rule #1: "Narrative: Science deniers, like Ken Miller and Eugenie Scott, ignore contradictory data, at first. "
I've never ignored nor seen "contradictory data" which could falsify evolution theory.
Eugenie Scott I know of, I have her book.
Brown's Ken Miller I don't know beyond seeing that he testified at Kitzmiller v. Dover Schools.
So it's worth noting that the issues at the Kitzmiller trial were both the Creationists' Panda book and a statement denigrating evolution which the government school board voted to order read in science classes.
That vote caused three opposing board members to resign, then science teachers refused to read the statement and Kitzmiller filed suit.
Later voters voted out the anti-evolution school board members.
"Kenneth R. Miller, a biology professor from Brown University and noted author and commentator opposed to the intelligent design and creationist movements, was the first witness.
He testified as an expert witness that 'Intelligent design is not a testable theory and as such is not generally accepted by the scientific community.'
He said that the idea of intelligent design was not subject to falsification, and demonstrated that many claims made by intelligent-design advocates against evolution were invalid.
When asked what the harm was in reading the statement, Miller gave a two-fold response.
- 1) "[I]t falsely undermines the scientific status of evolutionary theory and gives students a false understanding of what theory actually means." And
- 2) "As a person of faith who was blessed with two daughters, who raised both of my daughters in the church, and had they been given an education in which they were explicitly or implicitly forced to choose between God and science, I would have been furious, because I want my children to keep their religious faith.' "
Kalamata:
"But if the contradictory data doesn't go away, they recruit the Sword of the government to help suppress it." But "contrary data" had nothing to do with Kitzmiller v. Dover, that was all about an anti-evolution statement the government school board wanted to ram down the throats of science teachers & pupils.
Kalamata on Rule #2: "Narrative: Science deniers must continually reshuffle their vocabulary to stay "in business".
For example, "divergent evolution" has morphed into "convergent evolution", "parallel evolution", "preadaptive evolution", and "reductive evolution" (and perhaps a few others), so that, no matter what happens, evolution is ALWAYS true."
There's no doubt that the volumes of data confirming evolution theory today are orders of magnitude greater than what was available to Darwin some 150+ years ago.
And as data increased new natural processes were discovered needing new names.
That's how science is supposed to work, no matter how much it disappoints deniers like our own Kalamata.
Kalamata on Rule #3: "Narrative: The more accomplished science deniers use a large collection of quotes and references, like Michael Shermer in his books and lectures.
The less accomplished resort to artistic renditions of "evidence", such as pictures and models of imaginary whale, horse, and embryo evolution."
And speaking of imaginary drawings used to illustrate science related ideas, here's one I found in the Creationist book, Of Panda's and People.
I think it's Creationists' "proof" that there's no difference between truth & lies.
Or something.
Will stop here for now, pick up again later... ![]()
quoting BJK: >>Science Denier Rule#4: "Attack, attack, attack at your opponent's weakest arguments."
Kalamata on Rule #4: "Narrative: If that fails -- if your opponent has no scientific weaknesses -- smear, slander, and accuse him of the most vile thing imaginable."
That is actually Rule #7, which Kalamata slavishly practices, but for this purpose conveniently ignores.
Kalamata on Rule #5: "Narrative: Be careful. If you support the ideology that led to the holocaust, and there is no way anyone would believe his ideology led to the holocaust, if might be better to accuse him of something else, such as being a holocaust denier."
Blaming evolution theory for the Holocaust is like blaming 9/11 on the breakfast those terrorists ate.
Kalamata still commenting on Rule #5: "Narrative: Again, be careful.
This tactic worked well on all Creation and Intelligent Design scientists until recently; but now, with new discoveries in the genome, and with no supporting discoveries in the fossil record from the time of Darwin until now, the more accomplished scientists can legitimately throw that back in your face. Choose your targets wisely."
Here Kalamata obeys Rules #1, #2 & #6.
Kalamata: "LOL! They are not my rules. They are yours!"
I have yet to see where Kalamata violated even one of his "Rules for Deniers".
Kalamata on origin of life research: "Who paid for it?"
You don't know, but you claim it must be Federal tax dollars.
That's Rule #10.
Kalamata: "Assuming the so-called prebiotic molecules magically organized into self-replicating RNA, how does the RNA replication occur without the assistance of protein polymerases?"
Natural science is all about research to answer such questions.
Kalamata mis-attributing his own words to BJK: " >>Joe the Science Denier says, 'Frankly, I think he might be a closet holocaust denier making use of the ’Stop thief!’, first” misdirection tactic, like any well-trained Alinskite would do when push comes to shove."
Kalamata: "That is more than appropriate to explain today's usurpations and left-wing fanaticism.
Those trying to destroy our nation and culture with the religions of evolutionism and socialism, frequently use the "Stop thief" first deception, as you do."
I agree that the political tactics of our Leftists are despicable, even when used by propagandists like Kalamata.
Kalamata: "The word "gutter" appropriately identifies the filthy, foul-mouthed trash on Youtube and in other open forums who rabidly defend their religions of evolutionism and socialism (the religions that led to the holocaust and killing fields) with the most vile language and slander imaginable.
Alinsky Joe uses all of those tactics, except for the filthy language, so far."
I know nothing of any of those people or forums, can't answer for them.
Your comment here is a good example of Rules #6 & #8.
Kalamata referring to Shermer & Prothero: "We know those fellows are devout atheists.
We know both promote the climate-change scam.
We know both condemn those who are anti-abortion.
And we know that Alinsky Joe uses slander against those who oppose his world view.
So where are the lies, Alinsky Joe?"
Rules #6, #7 & especially #8.
Kalamata: "I think he intended to say, Rule #6."
I noticed that in attempting to "translate" my Rules of Deniers into your own language you mixed & garbled the numbers.
See my post #316 above for clarity on that.
Kalamata: "No doubt about that. But what about my question?
Are you denying that Satan, the Father of Lies, doesn’t teach men to doubt the Word of God?"
Possibly you refer here to John 8:44 (NIV):
"You belong to your father, the devil.
You want to obey your father’s wishes.
From the beginning, the devil was a murderer.
He has never obeyed the truth.
There is no truth in him.
When he lies, he speaks his natural language.
He does this because he is a liar.
He is the father of lies."
First, let's set aside the theological/historical question of whether the Hebrew word "Satan" equates exactly to the Greek word "diablos" translated here as "devil".
Second, it appears (?) that Jesus is talking to Pharisees, who Matthew 12:24 tells us said of Jesus:
"But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, 'It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.' "
Jesus first explains that's impossible and then accuses his accusers of being children of the devil, "the father of lies".
But were those Pharisees victims of
doubt?
No,
doubt was not their problem, they had no doubts, they held to, instead, misunderstandings -- lies about scripture fostered by their "father", the devil.
Indeed, doubt is a problem for Christians, recognized in the New Testament, but it's not necessarily sin.
Yes, we are often told not to doubt, but Jude 1:22 also tells us:
"Be merciful to those who doubt; "
Doubt alone does not make us "children of the devil", but lies do, and lies are what those Pharisees spread, not doubt.
Kalamata: "You can pretend the little microorganism your religion claims to be the first life was equipped with nostrils to receive that first breath, but nostrils on a microorganism is way too silly for any rational person to believe.
LOL! Evolution has to be the nuttiest theory ever imagined."
First, evolution theory is the opposite of any religion because it only provides natural explanations for natural processes, nothing super-natural in it.
Second, your quote itself provides the link between natural science and our beliefs in super-natural Creation.
God's Breath of Life created in Adam a Living Soul, which until that point had never existed.
No organism before Adam was a spiritually living human being. ![]()