Posted on 07/28/2019 6:02:04 AM PDT by Kaslin
What is the correct context according to you?
I have repeatedly heard Evangelicals quoting each of these verses as though they had general / universal applicability.
This was back when I was an Evangelical.
Which shows several things.
First off it's a complete misunderstanding of the new birth and the changed heart and mind that accompany it.
So technically, while true that nothing you can do or not do can cost you your salvation, the believer would ask, *Why would I want to*?
And stop believing? How is that going to happen when God has given you His Spirit, the One who works in us to will and do to do according to His good pleasure?
Catholics as a whole do not comprehend what a new nature does in a person. They seem to think without motivation the believer will not press on in their Christian faith and growth.
IOW, they can't be trusted to do it on their own out of love and gratitude, so Roman Catholicism throws the burden of maintaining the person's salvation on them with threats of hellfire and brimstone for failure to do so.
It's salvation and sanctification under coercion with threats of eternal punishment and the fear of it being the motivating factors for compliance.
All of which goes to show that Catholicism misrepresents God's mercy, grace, and forgiveness.
They teach that God's mercy must be begged for and groveled for, that His grace must be earned aka *merited*, and that forgiveness is conditional and must be paid for even when we are told time and again that salvation is a FREE GIFT.
We don't have to merit grace or forgiveness because while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. He didn't demand we clean up our act first and become good enough to *merit* grace and forgiveness.
St. Paul would disagree. See Romans 7.
Here’s a question. Were Ananias and Sapphira believers?
That’s a nonsense answer.
The scapular says what it says and does not get into the hair splitting you have delved into there.
Is what’s printed on that scapular a lie or not?
Will someone who dies wearing it avoid hellfire as it says; no conditions, no hairsplitting excuses.
In post 270 I said this, quote....If someone knows Christ, their lives will show it and people will see it.
You responded to post 270 with this, that is completely unrelated to what I said.
Vlad So everyone you know in daily life has become a believer in Christ, right? Seriously, you’re not making sense.
No, you are not the one making sense. However, you are the one moving the goalposts.
I never said that seeing the changed life of someone would guarantee the conversion of the unbeliever.
My comments are clear and understandable and on topic.
There's no justification for reading more into them than is said. Stop misrepresenting what I say and try to stay on topic.
The scapular has no conditions written on it.
It says what it says.
Is that statement on it a lie or not.
Romans 7 does not apply to what I stated because it describes the battle between the two natures and it does not justify the use of coercion and threats of hellfire to keep people in line. The motivation for righteous living comes from within from a born again heart, not from without by threats and outside pressure.
And Ananias and Sapphira may have been or may not have been genuine believers. It’s irrelevant.
Was St. Paul saved?
Was he a believer?
You're seriously asking this?
The Scapular is not the promise itself, but a summary, an encapsulation, of the promise. It doesn’t contain the EULA.
Just like the fine print “This notice is not an offer to sell, nor a solicitation of an offer to buy, any security. That offering is made only by prospectus.” or the ever-popular “visit our website for a complete list of terms and conditions, age 18 or older, void where prohibited, not valid in Alaska, Hawaii, or for Protestant naysayers.” /rimshot>
Ties into some rhetorical questions upthread.
Yes the motto is true, keeping in mind the conditions for being in a state of sanctifying grace.
Yes the motto is true, but "No," it would not be understood correctly by somebody who does not understand sanctifying grace, or the means of access to / increase of grace.
The problem with your reply is the apparition never said anything about "sanctifying grace". It listed specific conditions to "avoid the eternal fire".
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“This shall be a privilege for you and all Carmelites, that anyone dying in this habit shall not suffer eternal fire.”
The Blessed Virgin assigned certain conditions which must be fulfilled:
1.Wear the Brown Scapular continuously.
2.Observe chastity according to one’s state in life (married/single).
3.Recite daily the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin OR Observe the fasts of the Church together with abstaining from meat on Wednesdays and Saturdays OR With permission of a priest, say five decades of Our Lady’s Most Holy Rosary OR With permission of a priest, substitute some other good work.
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I highlighted the last part of condition #3 as this illustrates Roman Catholicism...a works based religion.
Then the apparition followed up with the conditions.
There are no other qualifications or limitations.
The apparition was specific on this.
The works based message and being "devoted" to the apparition is common among the apparitions. They are all deceiving the poor folks who believe this.
One of your fellow RCs is so scared of going to hell they wear this thing.
Another admitted they used to wear it but later discarded the thing.
The person wearing this idol is showing a complete lack of trust in the promises of Christ. They might as well be carrying around a "lucky rabbit's foot" or a four leaf clover.
Let me be clear on this:
A person trusting in this man-made piece of cloth to save them is in idolatry and has rejected Christ.
As Paul noted to the Galatians:
6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
7which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Galatians 1:6-9 NASB
The promise of the apparition was crystal clear.
“This shall be a privilege for you and all Carmelites, that anyone dying in this habit shall not suffer eternal fire.”
The carmilites were also clear on what this was about.
True devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary consists in three things: VENERATION, CONFIDENCE AND LOVE. By simply wearing the Scapular, we can tell her every moment of the day that we venerate her, love her and trust in her protection.
The various popes were clear on what this idol stood for.
Pope Leo XIII: “The Carmelite Scapular’s nobility of origin, its extraordinary spread among Christian peoples for many centuries, the spiritualizing effects produced by it and the outstanding miracles worked in virtue of it render the Scapular of Carmel commendable to a wondrous degree.”
Pope Pius XI: “In consideration of the munificent goodness of the heavenly Mother towards her children, it surely ought to be sufficient merely to exhort those who belong to the Scapular Confraternity to persevere in the holy exercises which have been prescribed for the gaining of the indulgences to which they are entitled.”
Pope Pius XII: “All Carmelites, whether they live in the cloisters of the First or Second Orders or are members of the Third Order or of the Confraternities, belong to the same family of our Most Blessed Mother and are attached to it by a special bond of love. May they all see in this keepsake of the Virgin herself a mirror of humility and purity; may they read in the very simplicity of the Garment a concise lesson in modesty and simplicity; above all, may they behold in this same Garment, which they wear day and night, the eloquent expressive symbol of their prayers for divine assistance.”
Pope John XXIII: He spoke “of the Mother of God who is honored in this Church of Our Lady of Mount Carmel. Devotion to her becomes a necessity; towards Our Lady of Mount Carmel we are drawn with a most tender, yet irresistible, attraction.”
Pope Paul VI, speaking of Marian devotions, especially of the Scapular, says “Let the faithful hold in high esteem the practices and devotions to the Blessed Virgin approved by the teaching authority of the Church. It is Our conviction that the Rosary of Mary and the Scapular of Carmel are among these recommended practices. The Scapular is a practice of piety, which by its very simplicity is suited to everyone.
**********
Just like the fine print “This notice is not an offer to sell, nor a solicitation of an offer to buy, any security. That offering is made only by prospectus.” or the ever-popular “visit our website for a complete list of terms and conditions, age 18 or older, void where prohibited, not valid in Alaska, Hawaii, or for Protestant naysayers.” /rimshot>
******
The problem for the Roman Catholic is there is no fine print or other disclaimers on the scapular.
The apparition was crystal clear in it's statement.
It is comical watching RCs attempt to justify this idolatry.
Do you even carmelite, bro?
If you are in a state of grace, you are not hellbait. If you are headed toward hell, it's because your soulis deprived of sanctifying grace. As John said, Christ is "the light which enlighteneth every man," but some men hate the light.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
What else could it be??? It certainly can't be the Catholic Church or any church that has unsaved people in its ranks...Unsaved people have not received any kind of annointing...So it has to be (a group) of individually annointed people and the citation is to each and every one of them and the group as a whole...
Then, there are instances, both in the life of Jesus, and elsewhere in the Gospels, and in the various epistles, where it is clearly implied or stated, that the revelations of the Holy Spirit to the church, are meant to be ongoing over time.
You mean indefinitely??? Nah, there ain't no scripture like that in the bible...
This does not mean that the cross and the Resurrection are overthrown, or usurped; but that God intends for His church to fight Satan in this world; and for that, additional help, prayers, guidance, and instructions are forthcoming.
Yes church, but not Church...There are no xtra-biblical doctrines or rosaries or dead Saints that can help...Ya see, scripture has already told us what the only weapons to figtht Satan are...
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
The word of God; the Bible...The ONLY weapon Christians have to fight off Satan is the Bible...
If the Bible is infallible in matters of faith and doctrine, why do so many Protestant churches deviate from it (e.g. divorce, gay marriage, ordination of women, women praying without their heads covered, rejecting the Biblical gifts of the Holy Spirit, all of which are explicitly covered in the New Testament)?
You tell us...The Catholic Church deviates from the Bible more than the rest combined...The reason is they don't like what it says or they just don't believe it...And you gave an excellent example:
First I don't accept 2 Timothy 3:16-17 as relevant, nor as dispositive of the issue.
There are known issues with translation, e.g. the sculptures of Moses with horns because one of the bible translations got a word wrong (IIRC it was something like "glory" or "radiance" but got transcribed or translated as "horns".)
Would this be it???
Deu 33:16 And for the precious things of the earth and fulness thereof, and for the good will of him that dwelt in the bush: let the blessing come upon the head of Joseph, and upon the top of the head of him that was separated from his brethren.
Deu 33:17 His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.
Again...the apparition did not mention anything about "sanctifying grace".
It told Simon to wear that scapular at all times.....Wear the Brown Scapular continuously.
It further outlined this nonsense in order to avoid the eternal fire.
Recite daily the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin OR Observe the fasts of the Church together with abstaining from meat on Wednesdays and Saturdays OR With permission of a priest, say five decades of Our Lady’s Most Holy Rosary OR With permission of a priest, substitute some other good work.
Substitute another "good work"???? What "good work" can substitute for the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross? Not one.
You can fast everyday of the week and it won't save you.
Not one of those will save a person. Not one.
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The Carmilites were clear on the meaning of the message of the apparition.
The Blessed Virgin of Mount Carmel has promised to save those who wear the scapular from the fires of hell;
It is crystal clear what the apparition is claiming. That it was going to save people from the fires of hell.
This is in complete contradiction of the Gospel where we are told that faith in Christ, and only Christ, will save a person. The apparition left that part out.
I am reminded that in cooking a little poison in the cake is enough to kill a person.
A little error mixed in with truth is sufficient to lead a person astray as the apparition has....though it has not said any truth.
Just a little bible study here?
Who is John writing to in this passage?
Context is your friend in understanding the Scriptures.
So is grammar, troll-boi.
Really dude? That’s all you’ve got?
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