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To: SeekAndFind

She’s correct about dual citizenship. A person should have to choose to which country their loyalty lies. (I’ve already been told about a SC decision a while back that okayed dual citizenship. That doesn’t make it a good idea)


7 posted on 03/04/2019 11:09:19 AM PST by grania ("We're all just pawns in their game")
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To: grania

Agree completely. Dual loyalty is not possible.


16 posted on 03/04/2019 11:22:04 AM PST by mrmeyer (You can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him. Robert Heinlein)
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To: grania
She’s correct about dual citizenship. A person should have to choose to which country their loyalty lies (I’ve already been told about a SC decision a while back that okayed dual citizenship. That doesn’t make it a good idea)

Part 1: I'll start with your basic thesis: Why should "a person should have to choose to which country their loyalty lies"? Take the simplest case: a child with an American mother and a Canadian father, who perhaps grows up in both countries (like Ted Cruz). Why should they be forced to pick one-country or the other and not enjoy citizenship in both?

Of course hopefully you are not suggesting that all countries should have citizenship laws that are the same, or dictated by the UN or something, so from an American perspective it really comes down to what the law in the USA is, and should be.

It would seem like a huge over-reach for the USA to attempt to strip citizenship of Americans who also happen to be citizens of other countries as a result of birth. That strikes me as sort of a fascist or Soviet style approach.

Now, in the case of citizens of other countries who are choosing to become American citizens (naturalize), that's a more interesting question. For years the naturalization oath has required people to renounce loyalty to other countries. It still does, here is the current oath:

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

SO: I'm not sure I agree with your basic assertion, that there should be no dual-citizens at all, but I do tend to think the Naturalization process which requires new citizens to voluntarily renouncie any former allegiance is a reasonable and good policy.

Part 2: Now I will give you some background on why accusing American Jews of being "dual citizens" is a uniquely obnoxious little anti-Semitic verbal tick.

Because of the unique experience of Jews in Europe and the founding of Israel all Jews worldwide enjoy the "law of return", meaning essentially instant and uncontestable citizenship in Israel, which can be claimed merely by showing up in Israel (and proving you are legitimately Jewish).

In other words Israel was designed, from it's modern inception in 1948, as a sanctuary home nation for all Jews, no matter where they may have been born. This was designed so that if something like local pogroms or even another Holocaust was ever attempted that Jews would have someplace to go to. (Something they did not have in WW2, which cost many millions of Jews their lives.)

Because the Jews were still oppressed in much of Europe and the Middle East after WW2, they formed this law with awareness of the nature of the continuing harassment of their people in foreign nations. It was common, when applying for certain jobs or positions in some Soviet-era Communist run countries, to require Jews to "renounce their Israeli citizenship". Obviously the Jews in Israel had been through all sorts of harassment did not appreciate this and as a result the State of Israel not acknowledge or honor any Jewish person renouncing their potential Jewish citizenship under the Right of Return. The feeling is that any such renunciation may have been coerced, and is ispo-facto invalid.

So, given these facts it is technically true that every Jewish politician in the USA is also eligible to live in Israel under the "Law of Return". And, slso, given Israel's unique laws there is no legal mechanism for them to renounce their right of citizenship under the Law of Return.

Therefore to go on and on about "dual citizens" in Congress, as the odious Representative Illan Omar is, that is merely a half-clever way of saying "Jewish members of Congress", it's a verbal tick used by Farrakhan, among other anti-Semites.

In many cases the Jewish members of Congress being accused of dual citizenship may never have been to Israel, may have no interest in ever going to Israel, and might even hate Israeli policy: but they still have the same rights as any other Jewish person in the world to go to Israel without a visa and live there. Technically they are "dual citizens" in some way.

So, there is some background on this you may not have been aware of.

30 posted on 03/04/2019 12:12:05 PM PST by Jack Black ("If you believe in things that you don't understand then you suffer" - "Superstition",Stevie Wonder)
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To: grania
A person should have to choose to which country their loyalty lies.

Which of your children do you love more? You should have to pick just one to be loyal to, to show love to, and to support and admire.

45 posted on 03/04/2019 6:57:11 PM PST by Teacher317 (We have now sunk to a depth at which restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men)
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To: grania
She’s correct about dual citizenship. A person should have to choose to which country their loyalty lies. (I’ve already been told about a SC decision a while back that okayed dual citizenship. That doesn’t make it a good idea),/i>

No, she's a bigot echoing typical antisemitic tripe. I seriously doubt Congresswoman Lowey ever became an Israeli citizen. Shes an American citizen who happens to be a Jew, which to some connotes disloyalty. Like Catholics, who we all know are loyal to the Pope. Fortunately that bias has largely disappeared.

As to dual citizenship, that's a function of the other country, not the US. A Mexican moving to the US legally, and becoming a US citizen is still a Mexican citizen. It would be nice if they renounced their Mexican citizenship, but that's not always possible. As in the draft dodgers who fled to Canada. They could become Canadian citizens, but the US would not allow them to renounce their US citizenship. Which would have been convenient to avoid prosecution. Many countries place restrictions on renunciation, or don't allow it at all. Since Ilhan is talking about Israel, an Israeli citizen can only renounce citizenship for a brief period before (after?) reaching 18, or after reaching an age, around 40, mandating military service. I don't believe Cuba allows renunciation at all. In many cases dual citizenship is simply accidental, by birth or immigration.

Since we're on Ilhan, a quick look appears to indicate that Somalia has allowed dual citizenship since 2012. I don't know their laws, but it's quite possible she's a US-Somalia dual citizen. Wonder if she's renounced.

50 posted on 03/05/2019 1:24:20 AM PST by SJackson (The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself)
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