[SteveH]

” But a Hard Brexit is still bad for British industry and British unity”

this is only true if you consider GB an inert object that sits and waits passively until bad things happen by default, and GB’s nation friends such as the USA do the same. How do you and other naysayers know that will be the case? I think you have been drinking too much kool aid.

Granted more trade can have positive effects. However, lack of border restrictions can have even greater negative effects. Consider the Maslow heirarchy of needs. at the bottom along with food, water, and shelter is security. I would argue that they are all basic to life, since without security, loss of life can occur— and has occurred throughout history. National security translates to a secure border. The EU does not offer that. The people obviously noticed. Obviously this fact escaped your notice, too. It also regrettably escaped your analysis. Perhaps it is time for you to stop drinking the EU kool aid and start thinking in therms of a national expression in support of national security.

As it happened it seemed apparent that the ruling elites never honestly anticipated the referendum to demonstrate that the people wanted to leave the EU. That is what all the gloom and doom publicity for brexit was about in all of the MSM. In retrospect it is admirable that enough people thought about it enough for brexit to prevail. A more honest referendum than that which you proposed would be a referendum in which the remain option was also broken down into possibilities, such as leaving the borders open to unlimited immigrant invasion from african and muslim countries without adequate democratic recourse by the brits. you see, even your favored alternative reality is a sham. You must have taken a big swig of remainer kool aid there!

I obviously have no crystal ball. But then, none of us do. And it is up to individuals acting individually and together to make the best of their lot and change direction when the time comes to preserve what good fortune they have and prepare for the future as best they can. Can’t you bring yourself to concede that GB has done exactly that, and if common sense continues to prevail, will continue to do so?

The EU is and will continue to be a poison pill in its current form. The EU had no choice but to make brexit as unpalatable as possible— so that other countries would be given a punitive example of what would happen if they follow GB. EU is now finally showing some signs of remorse because GB is holding its resolve and EU knows that both history and other restless member countries will judge it harshly nonetheless in the longer term. Can’t you admit that? In the longer term there is no such thing as a benevolent dictator, just dictators who sooner or put their own interests above those of the people they rule over. The same goes for the EU bureaucracy.

Had you been in the USA during the revolution, it seems to me as if you would likely be a Tory. Yes, there is uncertainty. But there is always uncertainty. Inside the EU, there is the uncertainty that the EU model of government is workable, that its currency is workable, and that its lack of borders would lead to any form of national security, or else a dissolution of the existence of nations altogether within its borders. Can you not see that that is a dismal uncertainty?

I think your problem is that you along with some of the company that you keep listen too much to the MSM remainer kool aid. Sure it sounds dreadful, but it is also shortsighted and nonsensical from a logical perspective when analyzed thoroughly. You and your friends are allowing yourselves to be persuaded by EU and one world order propaganda. You and your friends need to learn to think for yourselves as a first step towards freeing yourselves from the mental shackles in which you have surrounded yourselves voluntarily. Wake up! Uncertainty is a part of life, but free will and national sovereignty are the tools which will allow you (collectively) to rise to any challenge adequately and with optimism. Yes, you can! :-)

[Cronos]

I know it will be the case by the number of businesses that are relocating staff and offices from the UK to different countries in Europe

I know that GB would not move until doomed and not even then because the politicians in the UK are useless twats. There is no one on any side of the political spectrum who would do anything, not even Farage

GB's friends like the USA and Canada aren't lining up to give free trade deals to the UK because the UK has clear trading positions it does not want to give up (take a simple case - eggs from the USA can't be sold in the UK, they're illegal as per UK rules. So a bone of contention that will stop any trade negotiations)

[Cronos]

Lack of border restrictions between the EU nations has only picked up trade. I agree with you about not opening borders with non-EU countries, but shutting down within the EU is like Florida having a hard border with GeorgiaNational security translates to a secure border. The EU does not offer that. The people obviously noticed. Obviously this fact escaped your notice, too. It also regrettably escaped your analysis. - actually it does. If a criminal tries to escape he can be caught across France and Germany (say). If a person from Austria wishes to work in Germany, he can. If a person from Georgia wishes to work in Florida he can

[Cronos]

A more honest referendum than that which you proposed would be a referendum in which the remain option was also broken down into possibilities, such as leaving the borders open to unlimited immigrant invasion from african and muslim countries without adequate democratic recourse by the brits. you see, even your favored alternative reality is a sham. You must have taken a big swig of remainer kool aid there! -- Yet the borders are NOT open to unlimited immigrant invasion from African and Muslim countries.

There are clear borders between the EU and non-EU states.

Muslim scum came in, and headed for Germany. Other states said no

it would be like illegal Hondurans heading to New York but they first have to get past the border in Texas -- so you stiffen up the border in Texas, build the wall there, not between Texas and Ok etc.

[Cronos]

The EU had no choice but to make brexit as unpalatable as possible— so that other countries would be given a punitive example of what would happen if they follow GB.

What are you talking about? How exactly is the Nov 2018 unpalatable?

• The deal safeguards the rights for the 3 million EU citizens in the UK, and over 1 million UK nationals in EU countries to stay and continue their current activities in the place in which they have made their home
  
  
• The UK already was not part of the Schengen so had border controls -- you do know that, right?
  
  
• Britain would have to come good on the spending commitments it made as a member state. An agreement was finally made last November that the UK would stump up about £39bn, to cover its contribution to the EU budget until 2020, and accumulated other outstanding commitments such as pensions for EU officials. You leave a club, you pay off your commitments
  
  
• The Northern Irish backstop means the whole of the UK will remain in the EU customs union, while Northern Ireland will have to follow single market rules. What was the other option? a Hard border? Then bring back the troubles? or let Northern Ireland reunite with Ireland?
  
  
• British access to European markets will depend on the UK respecting EU standards on competition, tax, environment, as well as social and employment protection. This is just the same as Norway, Switzerland etc. you want to trade with the US, you follow US rules on goods and services. China has to follow GDPR and so too do British businesses

What part of the deal is "unpalatable" in your opinion?

[Cronos]

And what “remorse” - seriously, and for what? If the UK wants to trade goods, the goods need to follow EU rules - Norway does that and the UK would as well. But Norway has no say in the rules and the UK DID

[Cronos]

Had you been in the USA during the revolution, it seems to me as if you would likely be a Tory.

There is zero analogy - this is more similar to California deciding to break away from the Union than the revolutionary war. The UK is independent and had a voice in the EU parliament and an equal voice in the European council. This is completely, utterly different from the state of the American colonies before the revolutionary war

[Cronos]

Inside the EU, there is the uncertainty that the EU model of government is workable, that its currency is workable, and that its lack of borders would lead to any form of national security, or else a dissolution of the existence of nations altogether within its borders. Can you not see that that is a dismal uncertainty?

The Currency is completely separate -- you do know that many of the European union states do NOT have the Euro, right?

And even if the Euro fails, the EU is a separate entity

Finally, the lack of borders is not quite how you are seeing it -- look at Germany itself, it is a federation with the individual LANDen like Bavaria having near independence. Or the individual cantons in Switzerland. The EU is similar with a far far weaker center than even Switzerland.

[Cronos]

There is no "kool aid" -- the UK is going for hard Brexit and that's leading to more business coming to Central Europe. So for me, personally, this is good.

I also know that the Scots will then vote for independence and the net outcome will be the United kingdom of England and Wales which will be as impoverished as southern Wales. Why impoverished? Because the UK depends on trade and on the international supply chain. Put in tariffs and trade barriers and the JIT supply chain fails.