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To: Vermont Lt; redleghunter; Springfield Reformer; kinsman redeemer; BlueDragon; metmom; boatbums; ...
The church has a moral obligation to apply man’s laws.

Unless they conflict with God's laws.

They have no obligation to turn them in.

The obligation of the church is to police itself, and it is a deplorable thing and a dangerous precedent when the state needs to step in because the church has not effectively dealt with moral sinners (unlike doctrinal issues, which the state has no business in). Which means rebuke before the congregation for public sin after conviction at the mouth of 2 or 3 eye witnesses "that others may fear. (1 Timothy 5:19,20)

Excommunication and its shunning and spiritual discipline is required for impenitent pastors and laity alike for such manifest sinners as 1Co. 5:9-11.

After that, or in the absence of that, the state can choose to deal with such, and as the church can hand over the impenitent to the devil for chastisement, excommunication leaves the impenitent to the state to deal with, and without an ally in such case, until he repents.

But i do not agree that the church should be obligated to report public moral sins of its members to the state if it is doing its job to discipline such. But if the state requires it in certain cases then the church should do so if the state will act justly, and in the case of the penitent it should be their ally, and the state should let the church do its job.

But rather than reporting such to the civil powers first, the church is to be told first and investigate the allegations and provide its judgment, and not report mere suspects. Of course, if the church is known for not dealing Biblically with such, then one should not be part of it anyway, and only such a church should find itself being replaced by the state in dealing with discipline in moral transgressions involving others.

For while state is a minister of justice,(Rm. 13:1-7) it does not have the moral high ground and often does not deal justly, and should neither be in the home or church, standing where it ought not. And once it gets in the church, then it is prone to exercise its will in areas it should not be in, including what it is be taught. Thus the state should never have to be involved in matters within the church.

However, the rule is, if a person, home or church is not controlled from within, by God and conscience, then it must be controlled from without.

Men, in a word, must necessarily be controlled, either by a power within them, or by a power without them; either by the Word of God, or by the strong arm of man; either by the Bible, or by the bayonet. It may do for other countries and other governments to talk about the State supporting religion. Here, under our own free institutions, it is Religion which must support the State." (Speech to the Massachusetts Bible Society (1849-05-28), quoted in Robert Winthrop, Addresses and Speeches on Various Occasions, Little, Brown & Co., 1852, p. 172)

255 posted on 08/21/2018 6:18:32 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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To: daniel1212

The “church” is not above the law.

The key point to consider is whether or not the organization (the church, a school, a college, the boy scouts) is doing the “right” thing is if their first call after their lawyer and boss is to the police.

If the story is not accompanied by a mug shot, then the organization is full of shit and complicit.

Now, I dare anyone to do a search for Predatory Priests serving time. The number arrested and convicted is tiny. The amount of cases settled is huge.

That tells me everything that matters to these people.


256 posted on 08/21/2018 6:42:11 AM PDT by Vermont Lt
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To: daniel1212

The obligation of the church is to police itself,

Bears repeating; louder!

333 posted on 08/22/2018 5:24:02 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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