Thanks for an honest question. Really. On this forum it's kinda-like refreshing. Let's see if I can make sense of this without taking up too much bandwidth.
The Bible says there are three parts to repentance: (1) contrition, (2) confession, and (3) bringing forth fruits worthy of repentance. It's the third part --- not #1 and #2 --- that is related to indulgences, which the Catholic Church also calls "satisfaction". Some Bible translations use the phrases “do penance” or the word “penance” where other use “repent” and “repentance” but the meaning is the same: it means to "make satisfaction" for sin.
This was addressed by St. Paul to the Colossians --- believing Christians who lived in Colossae ---in the 50s while Paul was in prison. Notice that this is very early, and that its audience was forgiven sinners (believers) and yet that Paul says there will be repayment for "anyone" and "no favoritism."
You are forgiven (your eternal relationship to Almighty God is intact). You are fully in His good will. But wrongs still have to be paid for.
Wait--- what? Didn't Jesus pay it all by dying for us?
Yes, because He won for us what we could never-in-a-million-years have won for ourselves: life eternal! But it's to these saved people that Paul says "wrongs have to be paid for." He is NOT talking about eternal consequences (that's been paid in full). He's talking about temporal consequences.
Why? Because
He confesses his sin to his Dad. And he gets his answer: "Yes." But although the kid is truly sorry he did it and Dad forgives him (he hasn't disowned you, his wrath is turned away, in fact, you are back in his strong hug!) the car is still wrecked and you still have a broken leg.
You have repented, you have confessed, (thus you are forgiven) --- you feel great peace over that --- but that third thing, "bringing forth fruits worthy of repentance," still has to be done.
In this case, it probably means some painful rehab for the leg, and some payback to get the car repaired.
That's what a "penance" is for and that's what an "indulgence" is for.
This is about rehabbing your soul and restoring the balance of justice.
I am just trying to make that those two preliminary points, for now.
This is quite incomplete. It's Part 1. I'm sure you have more questions. If you want to ask them, I could go on to Part 2.
Nonsense and not Scriptural.
If the blood of Christ is insufficient to cleanse you of all sins...then there remains nothing for forgiveness of sins.
"Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favoritism." (Colossians 3:25)
If you sin...you incur the consequences of that sin on earth [as examples..you steal and get caught you go to jail....you have an affair and contract a STD..]...however, you are forgiven of that sin through His blood.
There is nothing you can do for your sin that equals the shed blood of Christ.
Again....not a NT concept or teaching.
Thanks for the explanation...
“This is about rehabbing your soul and restoring the balance of justice.”
We are powerless to rehab our souls, we are born into sin and have come up short and are as filthy rags...
The “balance of justice” concept is silliness, we cannot justify anything because we are powerless to be just. Only GOD is just...
Did you or someone else invent that fake scripture???
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Christians, even when they sin are no longer the children of disobedience...
Where is that laid out?
Chapter and verses please.........
Very good.
“This is about rehabbing your soul and restoring the balance of justice.”
Jesus paid it all. There is no debt remaining.
“Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elements of the world, rather than Christ. For the entire fullness of God’s nature dwells bodily in Christ, and you have been filled by him, who is the head over every ruler and authority.
You were also circumcised in him with a circumcision not done with hands, by putting off the body of flesh, in the circumcision of Christ, when you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
And when you were dead in trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, he made you alive with him and forgave us all our trespasses. He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations, that was against us and opposed to us, and has taken it away by nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and disgraced them publicly; he triumphed over them in him.” - Colossians 1
“The Bible says there are three parts to repentance: (1) contrition, (2) confession, and (3) bringing forth fruits worthy of repentance.”
I’d love to see WHERE the Bible says that!
“It is true that sorrow from sin is not repentance. Judas felt remorse, but he didn’t repent (Matt. 27:3). Repentance is not just a resolve to do better; everyone who has ever made New Year’s resolutions knows how easily human determination can be broken. Repentance certainly is not penance, an activity performed to try to atone for one’s own sins.
But neither is repentance a solely intellectual issue. Surely even Judas changed his mind; what he didn’t do was turn from his sin and throw himself on the Lord for mercy. Repentance is not just a change of mind; it is a change of heart. It is a spiritual turning, a total about-face. Repentance in the context of the new birth means turning from sin to the Savior. It is an inward response, not external activity, but its fruit will be evident in the true believer’s behavior (Luke 3:8).”
https://www.gty.org/library/articles/A330/what-is-biblical-repentance
Repentance will lead to good works, eventually, but good works are NOT part of repentance. From the same link:
“It is the attitude of the publican who, fearful of even looking toward heaven, smote his breast and cried, “God, be merciful to me, the sinner!” (Luke 18:13). Repentance is not merely behavior reform. But because true repentance involves a change of heart and purpose, it inevitably results in a change of behavior.”
The very concept of indulgences degrades and negates the sacrifice of Jesus. As Paul rebuked Peter:
“We are Jews by birth and not “Gentile sinners,” and yet because we know that a person is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we ourselves have believed in Christ Jesus. This was so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified...I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.”
If I need to do good deeds to be forgiven, “then Christ died for nothing.” “[Christ] made you alive with him and forgave us all our trespasses. He erased the certificate of debt...and has taken it away by nailing it to the cross.”
It is finished!
You have provided a wonderful insight I have not had into this. I do not quite agree with your #3, but the Catholic perspective makes much more “sense” to me, now.
Thank you!
Here's an 'honest' question:
Are those 7 churches mentioned in Revelation chap 2-3 Catholic or not?
That is a blatant isolationist misrepresentation of what the Bible teaches and what the text this means. To be consistent with "Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs," then Christians will have to suffer Hell, for the wages of sin is death, the second death. (Rm. 6:23; Rb. 20:11-15)
However, believers will suffer the loss of rewards relative to their manner of workmanship in building the church, which they do indirectly or directly. (1Co. 3:8ff) At length, Purgatory is based upon a false premise, that of the need for perfection of character (if by grace) in order to be with God, versus penitent faith which appropriates justification, which purifies the heart (Acts 15:9) and is counted for righteousness (Romans 4:5) and renders one accepted in the Beloved (on His account) and positionally seated together with their Lord in Heaven, (Ephesians 1:6; 2:6) from where they await the Lord's return and His final subduing of our "vile body," that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body," (Philippians 3:21)and which is the only transformative change after this life that the Scriptures speak of.
However, this saving justifying faith, is a faith which effects obedience by the Spirit, in word and in deed, in heart and in life, whereby "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit, (Romans 8:4) insofar as we do. And since faith and works go together like light and heat, sometimes they are used interchangeably as to what they effect. And which obedience includes penitent confession when convicted of not pleasing the Object of his faith for salvation, the risen Lord Jesus.
The appeal to the believer is to produce fruit consistent with faith, as a consequence of being accepted in the Beloved (on His account), to be practically (in heart and deed) as they are positionally in Christ, to be as much conformed to the Lord Jesus in this life as we can be, and will be in the resurrection. (Philippians 3:7-21)
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. (Galatians 5:25)
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. (Colossians 3:1-4)
But which progressive practical sanctification is not the cause of the sinner's justification and acceptance in Christ, but testifies to such being a believer, evidencing "things which accompany salvation," (Hebrews 6:9) and fit to be rewarded. (Revelation 3:4) For this faith, as manifested in said obedience, God will recompense (Hebrews 10:35) under grace, even though it is God who motivates and enables all obedience, (Philippians 1:12,13) while the only thing we can and must take credit for it our disobedience.
In contrast to this salvation by effectual faith, is salvation by grace thru works, as in Roman Catholicism, in which by grace one is actually made good enough to be with God via the act of baptism, even without the required wholehearted repentant faith. (Acts 8:38; 8:36,37)
However, since the carnal nature remains and few successfully attain to complete victory over any attachment to sin and perfection of character, then most baptized souls are sent to Roman Catholic (EOs trend to reject Rome's) Purgatory to endure purifying torments to atone for sins they sufficiently failed to provide for while on earth, and become good enough to enter glory.
There is some wiggle room as regards the conditions of purgatory since what this suffering actually entails and how long are not dogmatically taught, but while salvation by grace thru faith as in sola fide means it is effectual faith being imputed for righteousness that justifies, salvation by grace thru works means that by grace one is actually made good enough to be with God, which premise either requires perfection of character in this life (and which merely being made clean in baptism would actually not effect) or postmortem purifying torments.
The Catholic Encyclopedia states that St. Augustine "describes two conditions of men; "some there are who have departed this life, not so bad as to be deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness" etc.
And thus by the close of the fourth century was taught "a place of purgation..from which when purified they "were admitted unto the Holy Mount of the Lord". For " they were "not so good as to be entitled to eternal happiness". - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Purgatory
Likewise Catholic professor Peter Kreeft states,
"...we will go to Purgatory first, and then to Heaven after we are purged of all selfishness and bad habits and character faults." Peter Kreeft, Because God Is Real: Sixteen Questions, One Answer, p. 224
However, wherever Scripture clearly speak of the next conscious reality for believers then it is with the Lord, (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) Note in the latter case all believers were assured that if the Lord returned, which they expected in their lifetime, so would they “ever be with the Lord,” though they were still undergoing growth in grace, as was Paul. (Phil. 3:7f)
And the next transformative experience that is manifestly taught is that of being like Christ in the resurrection. (1Jn. 3:2; Rm. 8:23; 1Co 15:53,54; 2Co. 2-4) At which time is the judgment seat of Christ, which is the only suffering after this life, which does not begin at death, but awaits the Lord's return, (1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy. 4:1,8; Revelation 11:18; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards (and the Lord's displeasure) due to the manner of material one built the church with, which one is saved despite the loss of such, not because of. (1 Corinthians 3:8ff)
In addition, the whole premise that suffering itself perfects a person is specious, since testing of character requires being able to choose btwn alternatives, and which this world provides. Thus it is only this world that Scripture peaks of here development of character, such as "Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations." (1 Peter 1:6)
And even in making the Lord "perfect" as in experiencing testing, being "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin," (Hebrews 4:15) then it was in this world: "For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." (Hebrews 2:10)
Some argue Purgatory is supported in scriptures such as 2 Macc 12;44-46 ( atonement for the dead to free them from sin ),
But of what support is that of praying for men whom the text clearly stated were slain for their idolatry, which is a mortal sin? Meanwhile believing this book was Scripture proper was not required until after Luther died, almost 1400 years after the last book was penned.
Some argue Purgatory is supported by 1 Peter 3:18-20;4:6 ( Peter preaching to the spirits in prison.)
But which was to the lost souls like those of Noah's day, "wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water," and it is obvious they had not attained to perfection of character. But with His resurrection (Matthew 27:52) the Lord set free those in Abraham's bosom, (Ephesians 4:8,9) which is not purgatory but OT paradise (Luke 23:43) which is now Heaven. (2 Corinthians 12:4)
Some Catholics argue Purgatory is supported by 1 Cor 15:29-30 and 1 cor 15:29-30 ( baptizing the dead )
So do the Mormons, and it supports nothing than was it was invoked for, that of their being a resurrection which some ("they," not "we") thought postmortem baptism would effect, but with nothing inferred as purgatory. And which the Holy Spirit would never fail to clearly teach on, if it indeed was of Catholic importance.
Many argue Purgatory is supported by 1 Cor 3:15 ( saved through fire), but which is utterly invalidated as explained above, by God's grace. The very fact itself that the judgment seat of Christ awaits His return disallows it as referring to Purgatory, as does the cause and purpose of the judgment.
Some Catholics, such as the infamous sophist Tim Staples, argue Purgatory is supported by Mt 5:26 ( where you will not be released until you pay the last penny). Which is a recourse to dark sayings. Rather than Matthew 5:25-26 being "explicit about Purgatory" as Staples imagines this either refers to this life, or punishment in Hell, which is the context of Matthew 5:24-25 (Matthew 5:22; Matthew 5:27-29; cf. Mark 9:43), and Caths argue (Mt. 1:25) that "until" need not mean a terminus is inferred.
And here this story cannot be analogous to purgatory, since that is for forgiven souls who have some expiation to make for venial sins, but in Matthew 5:22-26, rather than a mere venial sin, the description here is of a "mortal sin." And neither was this man forgiven, but was damned, and given the vast amount he had to pay, i think "Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing" (Matthew 5:26) is saying he never will come out,
Some Catholics argue Purgatory is supported by Mt 12:32 (sin is forgiven in this age or the next), with the "next" referring to Purgatory .
However, this is invalid since the "next" refers to the 1,000 year reign of Christ in which there will be sin and forgiveness of sins, as Ezekiel shows in his many chapters which defy then as being mere allegory. Yet Catholic rejects this.
Some Catholics argue Purgatory is supported by 1 John 5:16-17 (sin unto death: degrees of sin distinguished), but which refers to apostasy, and there are degrees of sin, and of accountability and guilt, thus degrees of punishment, (Matthew 11:20-24) and which description are only about Hell, not some interim place.
Some Catholics argue Purgatory is supported by Mark 9;49 (all will be salted by fire )
Which is simply another example of the egregious extrapolation Catholics must resort to in order attempt to postulate some sort of support for what you can only wish Scripture manifestly taught, but which it does not!
While Christians are, and their work will be tested, in this section the only postmortem reality that is seen in the context is that of Hell: "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:48) and otherwise it speaks of salt (Mark 9:49,50; cf. Lev. 2:13; Eze 43:24) which represent holiness, which works for peace, and one either has it or they are good for nothing, (Mt. 5:13) and and there is nothing that infers purgatory in order to get it or more of it, though this would be one of many places we could expect to see it if it were true.
You make it sound as if indulgences is in the Bible. It is not. It was first invented by Pope Urban II around 1099 to encourage people to fight in the Crusades. As all false doctrine, it reached the pinnacle of corruption when Pope Leo needed funds to pay for the Vatican.
What you neglect in your theology is that ANY fruit that we bring forth (part 3), is solely because of the work of Christ in us. He is the vine. We are the branches. Without Him we can do nothing. There IS no good work that we can do apart from Christ. Indulgences is a heretical doctrine and takes away from the work of Christ and the working of the Holy Spirit.