Posted on 09/11/2017 8:26:49 AM PDT by searching123
Your paper published a Washington Post column by Marc Thiessen (Sept. 1) that claimed that the John Birch Society was anti-Semitic. When the error was brought to light by victims of this nasty falsehood, the phrase “widely believed” was added in as cover. This is dishonest and reprehensible.
First, let’s set the record straight. The Society is not and never has been anti-Semitic. In fact, when the California Senate investigated this in the early 1960s, it concluded that “our investigations have disclosed no evidence of anti-Semitism on the part of anyone connected with the John Birch Society in California, and much evidence to the effect that it opposes racism in all forms.”
This was obvious, considering the prominent Jewish leaders on the Society’s National Council from its founding. The Society has always had a policy of expelling any anti-Semitic infiltrators.
Secondly, the column praises William Buckley for having allegedly “excommunicated” JBS from the “respectable right.” Ironically, Buckley wrote in his magazine National Review that whites, as the “advanced race,” had every right to deny black people the vote.
The JBS, by contrast, published the work of black members in its own publications from its earliest days, and expelled racists. Let’s deal in facts.
Alex Newman
Coral Gables, Fla.
There is a brief reference in one paragraph of that article to his post-JBS activities and how his pro-Hitler sentiments became more apparent — but there are no specific details.
My larger points continue to be:
1. Oliver mis-represented his World War II employment. He was never a “Director of Research” of anything.
2. Nobody has written any sort of correct biographical portrait of him — particularly after his resignation from the JBS and
3. There is a vast amount of primary source documentation concerning his activities and his beliefs which has never been reviewed — particularly with respect to correspondence Oliver had with just about every major figure on the extreme right in our country (and elsewhere). For example: the archives at University of Oregon which contain the personal papers of many of Oliver’s more frequent correspondents.
4. An accurate understanding of who Oliver was and what role he played in the organizations he supported is not currently available.
Apparently, you have a reading comprehension problem.
I was responding to a message which inquired if any JBS members still existed and which suggested that they were all in “their 80’s”.
My point (since you apparently did not comprehend it) is that membership size is not a definitive or exclusive metric for determining impact or importance — for several reasons:
1. First, an extremist organization may have only a small or modest size membership (i.e. dues paying and regularly active people) BUT, typically, there are 10 times that many “state-of-mind” supporters/sympathizers.
2. Second, an activist group (even if relatively small) can easily cause problems in local communities. For example, when the JBS came into existence, there were numerous reports of local controversies involving JBS members attacking teachers, libraries, PTA’s, public speakers, etc.
3. Political extremist groups (left or right) are opportunistic and attack vulnerable targets and try to mold public opinion about specific issues and controversies. If they disseminate FALSE information, they can warp our decision-making or cause us to adopt policies which exacerbate legitimate problems.
4. Lastly, many people do not know that many very wealthy and influential people associated themselves with the JBS — including several billionaires. Regardless of how many members an extremist organization has — if it has extraordinary financial resources — it can be disproportionately effective at spreading its poison.
Ultimately, Cushing dissociated himself from Welch and the JBS after he became more aware of what Welch was writing about people whom Cushing admired respected.
Just the logical progression of what you originally wrote — when you declare that our ONLY problem is exclusively “the left”.
In other words, there is absolutely nothing to worry about from the right. ONLY the left represents a danger to our country and our values and our freedom — and threatens to impose “tyranny” upon us.
Consequently, I proposed that we just consider the logical progression of your conclusions, i.e. “ONLY people who share YOUR beliefs and public policy preferences deserve respect or consideration” — AND, presumably, you think that anybody YOU identify as belonging on the “left” side of the political spectrum should not be allowed to vote or run for political office because (as your argument goes)...
“The Enemy Within is the Lying Left that has abandoned the Constitution and whose goal is Global Totalitarian Government.”
In short — there is NO legitimate alternative competing political viewpoint in our country. ONLY YOUR beliefs and public policy preferences are decent, moral, principled, and patriotic.
That's a good thing.
I've been exposed to their materials over the years, and in several instances found myself in vehement disagreement on one point or another.
Having said that, I find efforts to demonize the JBS to be laughable.
While I'm not a member, I don't particularly have problems with those who are, and judge them overall as individuals.
Consider the NRA, for example, versus GOA.
Most around here know that GOA is more conservative than the NRA, and has some things "right" which the NRA is too "moderate" on.
Does that mean every member of the NRA is squishy on gun-rights? Of course not.
Does it mean that very GOA member thinks each American male should have a machine gun in their closet? OK, bad choice of questions. ;-)
My point is, being a member of—or reviewing content from—any "political" organization isn't some kind of scarlet letter.
My experience as an individual is that nobody has everything right.
As for JBS, I'm not with the derision of that organization, and I think that it serves an important role in the pantheon of anti-communist organizations.
One JBS adage seems to be: "One thing they often neglect to mention about McCarthy when disparaging him is that he was basically right!"
Just the logical progression of what you originally wrote — when you declare that our ONLY problem is exclusively “the left”.
That is NOT the logical progression of what I wrote. The logical progression is RELEVANCE and what is relevant today is the utter hypocrisy of the Lying Left.
“2. Nobody has written any sort of correct biographical portrait of him — particularly after his resignation from the JBS and”
I don’t know that anyone is willing to spend the time. He wasn’t all that well known when he was active and is barely remembered today. He was an oddball who left the mainstream in a big way back in the ‘60s.
But he is a curiosity that is kind of weirdly fascinating. If you decide to become his biographer make sure that you hang on to the film rights...
“there were numerous reports of local controversies involving JBS members attacking teachers, libraries, PTA’s, public speakers, etc.”
I doubt that there was any truth to that.
Knotts Berry Farm had a JBS meeting room of some sort in their Independence Hall building. Some friends and I wandered in for fun when we were in high school. The Birchers turned out to be about as extreme as a library guild. This was hardly the right wing version of the SDS.
Apparently you are a troll, here to try to pick fights.
Reviewing your posting history, you were last on FR in September, where you exclusively rant about the Birchers. Prior to your Sepember screeds, other than one post in Feb, you were last here in 2015 complaining about Birchers.
Please take your obsessive mental disturbances elsewhere.
You are entirely wrong. I have posted numerous messages on FR for over 6 years about many different subject matters but sometimes under different names.
I am not trying to “pick fights”. Like most other people here, I am responding to messages posted OR I am responding to items in the news.
Fortunately, nobody relies upon YOU as the sole arbiter of what is, or is not, acceptable. Intellectual cowards (such as yourself) merely want to censor anybody with views you do not like rather than substantively respond to their messages.
Apparently, you have no knowledge about actual JBS history.
For example: In 1970, the JBS published a pamphlet by its founder, Robert Welch, entitled “What Is The John Birch Society?”.
In that publication, Mr. Welch sought to summarize what he considered to be the accomplishments of the JBS during its first 11 years of existence. He singled out for comment the 1959 JBS campaign against Dr. Harry A. Overstreet, author of the 1958 book, “What We Must Know About Communism”.
In October 1959, the JBS published an article about Overstreet in their magazine at that time (American Opinion).
In his 1970 summary of JBS accomplishments, Welch declared:
“And our article on Overstreet served well a more specific purpose. It enabled our members in many parts of the country to block completely, or offset the effect of, speaking engagements by this octogenarian phoney, and thus materially to reduce the amount of poison he was pouring into the minds of good Americans from his position of previously unchallenged prestige.”
This was just ONE of SCORES of campaigns initiated by Birchers to attack, discredit and silence anybody who dared to be critical of the JBS or its arguments.
Another example concerns a teacher in Paradise, California by the name of Virginia Franklin.
The JBS Blue Book (a transcript of the founding meeting of the JBS) reveals that Welch explicitly called upon JBS members to go to work and infiltrate their local PTA’s — which Birchers did. The American Library Association published numerous articles about censorship efforts made by Birchers around the country.
The JBS Bulletin gave members monthly instructions about how they could go about attacking local, state, or national officials.
POBUCKER seems to believe everything which the JBS tells him:
According to the JBS, J. Edgar Hoover’s FBI was indisputably our nation’s most knowledgeable, authoritative, and reliable source of factual information about the communist movement in our country along with what constituted effective anti-communist activities. [See for example, the article entitled “The Wisdom and Warning of J. Edgar Hoover”, published in the JBS magazine (American Opinion) in its October 1966 issue.]
Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of conservative intellectuals, politicians, think tanks, and publications in our country shared that assessment — as did all of our state un-American activities committees AND the local/state law enforcement community — especially the intelligence units of Police Departments around the country.
When FBI employees gave speeches about internal security-related matters to civic organizations, they often came under attack by right-wing extremists because the FBI speaker made statements which did NOT conform to JBS dogma.
Director Hoover then approved a suggestion made by subordinates that the FBI partner with the American Legion’s National Americanism Commission to neutralize the damage being done by right-wing extremist writers and speakers. The FBI recommended that the Legion add certain knowledgeable individuals to their list of recommended speakers and also add their publications to the Legion’s recommended reading list.
One person and one publication recommended by the FBI, and added by the Legion, was Dr. Harry Overstreet — whom Robert Welch and the Birch Society described as “pro-Communist”!!
The FBI assisted Dr. Overstreet with his 1958 book, “What We Must Know About Communism” AND the FBI encouraged the Chief Counsel of the U.S. Senate Internal Security Subcommittee to use Overstreet as a witness-—and the Subcommittee’s Chief Counsel (Robert Morris) did do so.
The FBI received so many irrational letters from Birchers and other concerned citizens that Director Hoover finally had enough of JBS hysteria so he approved a statement which became the standard reply to the numerous inquiries received by the Bureau. That statement was meant to respond to the JBS contention that the United States was “60-80% under Communist influence and control”.
Hoover observed:
“The Communist Party in this country has attempted to infiltrate and subvert every segment of our society, but its continuing efforts have not achieved success of any substance. Too many self-styled experts on communism, without valid credentials and without any access whatsoever to classified factual data regarding the inner workings of the conspiracy, have engaged in rumor-mongering and hurling false and wholly unsubstantiated allegations against persons whose views differ from their own. This is dangerous business. It is divisive and unintelligent, and makes more difficult the task of the professional investigator.”
ernie1241 says... September 17, 2017 at 11:50 a.m.
POBUCKER: What “straw man” argument have I presented?
Isn’t it self-evident that ANY problem we confront cannot be resolved if we base our decisions upon false or misleading information?
The mentality which produced the horrendous mistakes made by Robert Welch and the JBS from the 1960’s thru 1985 (when Welch died) did not just magically disappear. The JBS never retracted ANY of its original core beliefs — and, in fact, even today the JBS often quotes its comments from 50+ years ago as “proof” for what they believe — as if the JBS has NEVER made ANY errors!
Consequently, when you consider the fact that the JBS is a well-funded organization with tens of thousands of members and even more tens of thousands of supporters — it has the capacity to warp our political discussions today — just like it did 50 years ago. The difference is that TODAY, the JBS has even more avenues to spread its poison because of technological advances which did not exist when they came into existence such as internet, social media websites, and blogs where anybody can post absolutely false information.
It should also be remembered that, more often than not, when the JBS or its surrogates (using JBS arguments) have been defendants in libel lawsuits, they have lost.
The most famous example being when a Chicago lawyer (Elmer Gertz) sued the publishing arm of the Birch Society because a JBS magazine article falsely described Gertz as a “Communist fronter” and a “Leninist” who was engaged in a “conspiracy against Chicago police.”
After 14 years of litigation, including two different jury trials, numerous appeals, and review by the U.S. Supreme Court, the JBS paid Gertz $100,000 in compensatory damages and $300,000 in punitive damages for malice. Punitive damages are only allowed when “malice” can be shown. Malice, in legalese, refers to “reckless disregard for truth” arising from evil intent and a desire to inflict injury, harm, or suffering.
As one Appeals Court observed about the JBS article on Gertz:
“There was more than enough evidence for the jury to conclude that this article was published with utter disregard for the truth or falsity of the statements contained in the article about Gertz.” [U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit, No. 81-2483, Elmer Gertz v. Robert Welch, Inc., 6/16/82, page 20].
Birchers initiated attacks upon:
*our entire civil rights movement and all of our national civil rights organizations and leaders,
* the United Nations
* the National Council of Churches
* the National Education Association
* every GOP or Democratic Party candidate for President during the past 50 years
* the U.S. Supreme Court
* fluoridation of public water supplies
* Great Decisions seminars
-——and numerous other matters.
If you want to see the scope of JBS activities which produced local controversies, try reviewing the FBI HQ main file on the JBS (HQ 62-104401) because it is FILLED with thousands of letters from concerned citizens who reported JBS activities in their local communities which caused division and hysteria.
Well, Sargon, virtually the entire conservative movement has denounced and rejected the JBS as an extremist organization.
JBS critics have included such prominent conservative Americans as:
Sen. Barry Goldwater, Cong. Walter Judd, Gen. Albert C. Wedemeyer, Russell Kirk, Eugene Lyons, Willmoore Kendall, James Burnham, Robert Bork, J. Edgar Hoover, Herbert Philbrick, Frank S. Meyer, Cong. Gordon H. Scherer, William F. Buckley Jr., Patrick Buchanan, Fred Schwarz, Lee Edwards, the editors of the conservative newspaper, Human Events, George Sokolsky, Roy Cohn, Anthony Bouscaren.
Even many former Birchers became critics such as: Alan Stang, Gary Allen, Milorad Draskovich, John Rees, William Norman Grigg, Don Fotheringham, Mrs. Robert Welch and many more.
No, Jim, what you originally wrote was NOT limited to the excerpt you refer to.
Your ENTIRE argument was focused exclusively upon what you called “the Lying Left”.
Quoting you:
“The Delusional Lying Left are purveyors of
- racism,
- anti-semitism,
- Nazi/fascist violence and
- Jacobean reign of terror,
but wants you to instead focus on nits like The John Birch Society.”
AND
“The Enemy Within is the Lying Left that has abandoned the Constitution and whose goal is Global Totalitarian Government. The Dems are the Obvious Left while the GOP is Left Light.”
AND
“The Second American Revolution is to defeat the tyranny of the Left and REINSTATE the Constitution as the Rule of Law and Supreme Law of the land over the central government and thereby RECOVER our Free Constitutional Republic.”
Consequently, my subsequent comments are entirely accurate. You want us to totally ignore EVERYTHING that does not fit into your paradigm.
The basic problem with your approach is that political extremists (left or right) seek out targets of opportunity to exploit. The ONLY chance that right-wing extremists have to accomplish anything of substance in our country is if people like yourself convince Americans that we should totally ignore political extremism which originates from the right-side of the political spectrum.
As I mentioned in a previous message:
1. First, an extremist organization may have only a small or modest size membership (i.e. dues paying and regularly active people) BUT, typically, there are 10 times that many “state-of-mind” supporters/sympathizers.
2. Second, an activist group (even if relatively small) can easily cause problems in local communities. For example, when the JBS came into existence, there were numerous reports of local controversies involving JBS members attacking teachers, libraries, PTA’s, public speakers, etc.
3. Political extremist groups (left or right) are opportunistic and attack vulnerable targets and try to mold public opinion about specific issues and controversies. If they disseminate FALSE information, they can warp our decision-making or cause us to adopt policies which exacerbate legitimate problems.
4. Lastly, many people do not know that many very wealthy and influential people associated themselves with the JBS — including several billionaires. Regardless of how many members an extremist organization has — if it has extraordinary financial resources — it can be disproportionately effective at spreading its poison.
Actually, Revilo Oliver was extremely well-known within the right-wing movement.
BEFORE he joined the JBS, he was a regular contributor to National Review and American Mercury magazines. He was the featured speaker at events sponsored by numerous conservative organizations. He was an endorser of many groups OR he was a member of the “advisory board” of many right-wing organizations.
He was a prolific writer and speaker — which you can see from this website:
http://www.revilo-oliver.com/indexold.html
Also see: http://www.revilo-oliver.com/news/
It’s really sad to be a crank obsessed with the minutiae of the John Birch Society.
But then that’s you.
Wtf is wrong with you?
U got some axe to grind ?
This was a month ago. As I recall you were trying to split hairs about something and missing the overall point that the Left, not the JBS, is the threat today to our society and well being.
Do “right-wing extremists” exist? Of course they do, but the Lying Left calls American patriots, “right-wing extremists”. Is the JBS a “right-wing extremists” group? Maybe. Are they the threat you and the Left think we should focus on? Absolutely not. If you got rid of the JBS today, it wouldn’t effectively change a thing.
Focusing on the REAL problem - the “clear and present danger” - is NOT denying there are other problems or issues. But if you treat minor or secondary problems with the same focus and energy as major problems, you’ll lose - you don’t have unlimited energy or resources. You’ve got to mobilize your limited forces and energy on where the real threat is. That is NOT denying there are other problems but for now, relatively minor problems like the JBS should be on the back burner.
The point you miss is the Lying Left wants you to focus on “right-wing extremists” so you’ll get your eyes off of today’s REAL problem: the Lying Left. You seem to be accommodating them very well.
While you’re contemplating that, contemplate this: the list of the Top 10 leftist groups leading the “Trump resistance movement” and wreaking havoc across America. The JBS pales in comparison to this threat. http://www.wnd.com/2017/09/top-10-leftist-groups-wreaking-havoc-across-u-s-sabotaging-trump/
These delusional, hypocritical, and dangerous Lying Leftist groups represent the REAL hate, scare, intimidation and violent tactics of Jacobin Reign of Terror, Nazi fascists, Communist thugs. They are the REAL enemies of America and must be opposed with force by our police and punished by our courts.
1. Workers World Party (WWP) - a hard-core Marxist-Leninist group, have appeared at anti-monument and anti-Trump events across America. The party was founded in 1959 by a group led by Sam Marcy of the Socialist Workers Party. It has supported the Weather Underground Organization and had a strong presence in the Black Lives Matter movement.
2. Color of Change –has launched a new petition titled, “Take Em ALL Down: Remove Every Confederate Symbol in America.” It has also called on members of Congress to remove all Confederate statues in the U.S. Capitol Statuary Hall. It and its parent organization, Citizen Engagement Laboratory, has received $550,000 from Soros’ Open Society Foundation since 2009, according to Activist Facts.
3. Onward Together - Launched by Hillary Clinton in May after her failed bid for the White House, Onward Together is a political action organization that seeks to be “part of the resistance” against President Trump by funding many of the leftist activists organizing against the administration. Clinton reportedly sent $800,000 from her presidential campaign funds to Onward Together on May 1.
4. Indivisible - their parent company, The Action Network, which was involved in the Ferguson protests, is located at the same Washington, D.C., address as the George Soros-funded United We Dream, which has organized anti-Trump protests on college campuses, the Washington Free Beacon reported. “Members of the [Indivisible] movement have caused representatives to flee town halls and, at times, cancel public events altogether,” the Los Angeles Times reported. “They’re corralled constituents, visited district offices and made phone calls en masse demanding answers.” Rep. David Schweikert, R-Ariz. stated, “Groups called ‘Resistance,’ ‘Stronger Together,’ ‘Indivisible,’ ‘We Are the People,’ and ‘We Feel the Bern’ are far left front groups determined to inflict the kind of violence that we have seen before,” Rep. Schweikert wrote. “These groups believe that even Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are too moderate. They drive a radical social agenda and will stop at no turn to ‘clash with police,’ ‘incite violence,’ ‘light cars on fire,’ ‘incite mass arrests,’ and ‘use men, women, and children, and families to mass confusion.”
5. MoveOn.org - funded by billionaire George Soros, this far-left group funds other radical and violent far-left groups focused on pushing the impeachment of Trump that claims it has 8 million members across America. in March 2016, Roger Stone, a friend of President Trump, claimed MoveOn.org helped organize a protest against Trump at Trump Tower, “Infiltrating the crowd, I learned most were from MoveOn or the Occupy movement,” Stone wrote in the Daily Caller. “Soap was definitely in short supply in this crowd. Several admitted answering a Craig’s List ad paying $16.00 an hour for protesters.”
6. AntiFa - a black-clad, bandanna and helmet-wearing group of self-described anarchists and revolutionary communists known for violence and threats. In February 2017, Antifa activists rioted and set the University of California at Berkeley campus on fire, causing $100,000 in damages. They threw rocks through windows and forced the cancellation of a speech by Milo Yiannopoulos. On Aug. 27, approximately 4,000 Antifa agitators and other leftists shut down a “No to Marxism” rally and prayer vigil being held by about 400 conservative Christians in Berkeley, California. The San Francisco Chronicle, which had reporters on the scene, referred to the Antifa crowd as anarchists, stating, “The masked… anarchists chased away the right-wingers, and in one case four or five pummeled a man with fists and sticks before a radio host for Reveal, Al Letson, jumped in to shield the victim. Anarchists also attacked reporters who documented their actions.”
7. By Any Means Necessary (BAMN) – an Antifa-linked group that helps organize the fiery riots with AntiFa that includes violence, destruction of property, throwing firebombs and commercial-grade fireworks at police and slamming metal barricades against buildings.
8. UltraViolet – an ultra-left feminist group dedicated to disruption, as organizer Melissa Byrne did recently on the second floor of Trump Tower, received $65,000 from MoveOn.org Political Action in 2016. MoveOn.org is a far left group funded by billionaire George Soros.
9. Industrial Workers of the World (IWW) - a Chicago-based organization of socialists, anarchists and Marxists with ties to the Triangle People’s Assembly, Industrial Workers of the World and Democratic Socialists of America, clashed with police on May 20 while protesting a permitted remembrance of “Confederate Memorial Day” in Graham, North Carolina. Two IWW members were charged with assaulting the sheriff and police officers.
10. Organizing for Action (OFA) - the community organizing group that formed from Obama’s 2012 re-election campaign and Organizing for America, has offered “online trainings.” In a February Facebook post, OFA urged activists to reference the Indivisible guide for tips on crashing lawmakers’ townhalls across America. The manual, published with OFA partner “Indivisible,” advises protesters to go into halls quietly so as not to raise alarms, and “grab seats at the front of the room but do not all sit together.” Rather, spread out in pairs to make it seem like the whole room opposes the Republican host’s positions. “This will help reinforce the impression of broad consensus.” It also urges them to ask “hostile” questions — while keeping “a firm hold on the mic” — and loudly boo the the GOP politician if he isn’t “giving you real answers. Express your concern [to the event’s hosts] they are giving a platform to pro-Trump authoritarianism, racism, and corruption,” it says. “Even the safest [Republican] will be deeply alarmed by signs of organized opposition,” the document states, “because these actions create the impression that they’re not connected to their district and not listening to their constituents.”
I’m beginning to wonder if this searching123 is some kind of Leftist troll.
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