Posted on 07/22/2017 8:03:00 AM PDT by EliRoom8
This is a well prepared and thoughtful YouTube analysis of the Rev.12 "heavenly sign" connected with 12:4(b) "and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered . . ."
The beginning two verses of this chapter have been covered quite extensively for the last six years. Scottie Clarke using Stellarium in 2011 discovered the constellation alignment. Since then a small portion of the pre-trib rapturists accept it and a larger portion of the dispensationalists don't (reject the interpretation as "date setting.")The Presbyterians and Lutherans (Reformed Theology) pretty much eschew most end-time teaching.
What can explain the peculiar obscuring of this part of the night sky by NASA and Stellarium?
Jupiter moves out of Virgo on September 12 not the 23rd this year(I checked)...and Jupiter moves into Virgo once every 12 years and stays there a full year.(Jupiter has an orbit of 12 years) For 6 months of the year the Sun “always clothes Virgo”(for 3 months fully, for 3 months partially(that is 1.5 months partially, 3 months fully and 1.5 months partially again)...at least in the Northern Hemisphere. She is seen during the Fall and winter months setting again in the spring or at least becoming invisible behind the sun and because of its apparent motion in relation to the Earth’s position in Sol’s orbit. The Egyptians celebrated her rising in the evenings as the time to start their wheat harvest.
I think John saw something so unusual that it could not be discounted by persons such as me as simply planetary bodies in motion. The description of the Dragon and what he does with his tail is intriguing especially the description of the “flood he spews out of his mouth” with which to try to drown the woman but instead the “Earth helps the woman by opening up its mouth to swallow up the flood” while the woman dwells in safe place for 1260 days to prepare. The Dragon goes on to make war with the rest of the woman’s seed.
I think the “signs” described in the Revelation 12 need to be understood in relation to the rest of the chapter. The chapter describes the War of Michael the arkangel and the angels of heaven who war against Satan and the third of the angels that took up with him are literally thrown down upon the Earth as there was no more place in heaven for them any more. Another words, the poor humans stuck on the Earth at that time are stuck with a bunch of angry demonic angels and a very angry Devil who are all trapped together as God begins his final mop up action...started from the death and resurrection of Jesus. The planet is under quarantine, nothing evil gets off the Earth and nothing evil leaves our dimensional plane. Even a loud voice from Heaven is said to warn the Earth...”How horrible it is for the earth and the sea
because the Devil has come down to them with fierce anger,
knowing that he has little time left”.
I think the story of the signs is allegorical, a retelling of the history of the birth of Jesus(as he has been already caught up), the story of the Church’s struggles with the adversary through the years, the story of the final battles and the purging of Israel, the efforts of an aroused common people(”the earth”) who begin to oppose the efforts of Satan to destroy anything that is Godly(”who swallow up the flood that threatens the woman by opening its mouth”) Leading to the final 1260 days of the horrible judgments falling upon the Earth, from which the “woman” is protected and is in preparation. In chapter 13 we see multitudes saved out of the Tribulation....
Just my 2 cents....
It's almost as if something is repeating itself. What might that be?
We are not checking on individual occurrences, but for ALLl of the details to be be in alignment. This has never happened before: Not 11 stars, not just the moon, or just the sun, or the moon + sun.
12 prominent “stars” in Leo above the woman (Virgo)
The moon at her feet
Clothed with the sun
Jupiter in the womb area for a long gestation peiod
Happening of the ext Jewish feast Day
Happening in the year 5777
Happening on a Jubilee year
Happening 69/70 years after UN establishment of the Jewish state
Happening one jubilee (50 years) after the retaking of Jerusalem
Happening 100 years after Belfour Declaration and cessation of Ottoman control
God did mention using the stars as signs in Gen. 1:14 “. . . let them serve as signs to mark sacred times . . .”(NIV)
>>I think the story of the signs is allegorical, a retelling of the history of the birth of Jesus(as he has been already caught up), the story of the Church’s struggles with the adversary through the years, the story of the final battles and the purging of Israel, the efforts of an aroused common people(”the earth”) who begin to oppose the efforts of Satan to destroy anything that is Godly(”who swallow up the flood that threatens the woman by opening its mouth”)<<
Don’t go there with the “allegorical” approach and undermine Scripture as is the hobby of the preterits. I just spent the past week listening to a few so called Bible teachers posit that Isaiah 11 was just a bunch of allegorically jazz because Jesus was not going to really rule from Jerusalem.
Pretty soon these successive allegories will make the Scriptures into “edifying fairy tales” meant to uplift the spirit of man. Or as one “allegorical-approach” teacher stated “It’s not so simple as something physical that you could fold up and put in your pocket.” Then went out on to expel some gas and puffery.
John flat out stated that it was a heavenly sign with defined features.
>>Jupiter moves out of Virgo on September 12 not the 23rd this year(I checked)<<
This is due to the lines in the illustration. Jupiter leaves the area between her legs Sept 21 - Sept 23.
>>a retelling of the history of the birth of Jesus(as he has been already caught up), <<
Jesus ascended to heaven. A different verb is used to describe His ascension than being “quickly rescued; caught up; snatched; raptured” (harpazo) in Rev. 12.:2
You missed my point....John saw a sign but not necessarily star constellations and planets wizzing around...he saw something that was way out of the ordinary. Then he explains in the rest of Revelations 12 what would come out of the results of that sign. Some are arguing for example that the dragon was the dreaded planet X/Nibiru bringing with it swarms of firey comets. Yet we know that when Satan rebelled,many angels rebelled with him. Some have argued that the dragon with his “sweeping tail was Satan with 1/3 of all angels rebelling with him being thrown down to the Earth. Revelations 12 goes onto explain specifics as to the war in Heaven in which Satan and his angels are locked out of heaven and confined to the Earth.
The Bible has no orderly chart as to what the constellations are supposed to mean in the way people are trying to twist them. There are extra biblical sources, greek, roman, and Babylonian/Sumerian myths which are tainted by paganistic Gods and demigods we are not supposed to give heed to that name the various constellations and what they are supposed to mean. Jupiter spends 1 year out of every 12 in the Constellation of Virgo and 3 months of that year, the “sun completely covers Virgo” as it could not be seen during daylight hours.
You argue that the VIRGO constellation conflagration in September is a sign but you are also allegorizing it. I say John actually saw a woman bathed in sunlight, wearing a crown of 12 stars, giving birth to a man child and then fleeing away from a very wroth dragon. This woman is the restored Israel!! The woman, post-natally was undergoing her ritual purification in a wilderness area (as all Hebrew women would have done(per the law of Moses) after giving birth, even as Mary did after giving birth to the Messiah.) when the dragon spit a flood of water after her. Israel will go through such a purification in the last 3.5 years and 1/3 of her population would be all that is left.
Revelations 12 mixes allegory with fact but I have never suggested that the allegory involved denies a higher reality behind it, I only argue that its meaning would become clearer as prophetic events unfold. 1260 days is 3.5 years and that is the time of the “woman’s” preparation. Some have argued this is the Bride of Christ but this woman has had a child which was caught up(as per KJV 12:55 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was CAUGHT UP(emphasis mine) unto God, and to his throne). Thus I believe this to be speaking of Israel, not of the Bride specifically though it could include her(the earth helped the woman by opening up its mouth to swallow up the flood sent by the Dragon. The Dragon then proceeded to make war against the remnant of her seed “which keep the commandments and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ”).
Context is key...when I examined many of the September 23 preachings I observed lack and loss of context.
I say Jesus rules out Jerusalem. He touches down on the mount of Olives(there is a faultline there already) (Zechariah 14:4) and it will split in 2 with the mountain halves moving North or South...they also know scientifically right now that there is a huge immeasurable aquifer beneath that area...hence the future river that forms moving eaat and west that Zechariah 14 describes.
Dpn’t ever accuse me again of not being a Bible literalist...allegory is sometimes used in the Bible to temporarily shade the meanings until the fullness of time or it is used to explain higher order realities that we simply have no way to adequately put into language, save for the Spirit which gives us guidance.
The Book of Revelation is a vision-allegory for sure, but I remain unconvinced that it is influenced by astrology or pagan cosmogony--- even by analogy.
The sky-signs are phenomenlogically just as described by John, who actually saw them: a great and regal woman who looks like a great and regal woman, a dragon that looks like a dragon: signs, not constellations.
But what do I know? IMHO.
What purpose would such a vision serve prophetically given that believers are admonished to watch and prepare, that the exact time will not be known but the season will be? How was the progression of seasons tracked? Astrologically.
Nevertheless, as far as I can see, the Hebrew Scriptures do not pore over sky-phenomena astrologically. The toss-away line "And He made the stars also" in Genesis is a delicious bit of Jewish irony --- in the face of the Babylonia/Egyptian obsession over stars, a cultural trait the Jews did not share but with which, I am sure, they were quite familiar.
I remain skeptical that the stars were expected to yield any "gnosis" for Jews and Christians. I think the "watch and prepare" admonition in the Gospel means that we should look to our our spiritual state and our walk with the Lord: look to our souls, and not to the stars.
A number of critics have offered rebuttals of the purported sign arguing that the sign is not unique or is only astrology. Critics include Answers in Genesis author Dr. Danny Faulkner[24], famous Christian author Joel Richardson[25], and Jan Markell from Olive Tree Ministries.[26]
Dr. Faulkner mentions[27] several specific points of contention including:
“...Jupiter appears in the part of Virgo corresponding to her womb, along with the sun in Virgo and the moon at her feet for a day or two every 12 years or so.”
“Since the claim that Leo has nine stars is false, the assertion that the addition of the three planets brings the total number of stars in Leo to 12 is false too.”
“And how do we know that Jupiter must represent the child? There is no evidence for that either.”
“These sorts of claims amount to Rorschach tests—people tend to see in them what they want to see.”
“This year, with the huge popularity of YouTube, it is much easier to propagate these ideas.”(from wiki links.
Leo has many stars in it but if you want to argue that we are talking about the main sequence point stars that make up the “lines of leo” most of them are Binary stars hence many more than 9 stars. Safer to believe John actually saw a sign or vision of a real woman giving birth, crying out during her travail...
Now we do have world events that are occurring that tell us that Christ is coming soon. Israel is again a nation. Matthew 24-25 speaks of a real sign that all will see ...that is the “sign of the coming of the Son of Man”. So I am a great believer of signs...not fortune telling by means of the stars!
As for the markings of times and seasons yes...but we are warned about using the stars as fortune telling devices...they are announcers of times perhaps but not the predictors of times!
One other warning about timeline symmetries....God told Abraham it would be 400 years before Israel would emerge from Egypt, once she went. It was actually about 480 years(years of 360 days with corrections thrown in periodically to bring the months back in line with the stars) since Moses was 80 years or so old when Moses came out of Egypt. Was God wrong? It depends if you see the Birth of Moses as the end of the 400 years and the beginning of God’s actions to bring Israel out of bondage. Israel was in Egypt 400 years but she wasn’t free’d until Moses’ 80th year...yet Moses was born at the 400th year. So hence my warning to you about citing dates and alignments....they could only be signs of the “beginnings” of God’s actions but not necessarily the completion of them!
Now I believe that there will be a 7 year period of horror the likes of which Earth has never seen. Yet even the Bible states that it would be cut short for the elect’s sake...now does that mean 7 years “minus” an unspecified time...or does it mean 7 years but if things continued beyond 7 years, all life on Earth would cease...”hence those days were cut short” (at the precise 7 year mark) lest all life would be ended after that 7 year mark?
That is why date setting from clues in the Bible doesn’t get us to when the “final final” will occur!
No there are not in Leo...most of those main stars in Leo are Binaries! And Jupiter is not in the womb for 52 weeks but only a few days as the Earth comes to a place in its orbit where Jupiter appears to “loop dee loop” and “anguish to be delivered’ doesn’t necessarily mean a prolonged birth sequence...but is does mean that “IT HURTS”! Now Jupiter is in Virgo for an entire year but that is it for another 80 years. We don’t even know that Jupiter is supposed to be the allegorical Christ child since we are stating that John is mixing paganism with Christ.(ie Jupiter being the head God of the Romans).
There are lots of other reasons to believe God’s coming is close...but this allegorical reading into the astronomical doings of Jupiter in virgo is not necessarily one of them.
Return of a stellar body...maybe....the return of the days of noah in which the righteous are saved from cateclysms... most probably as Jesus warned!
I have no problem with the notion that the Bible contains a fair amount of astrological information. What is forbidden, is what Herod did or tried to do. He tried to use a God-given sign to thwart the will of God. Seeing a sign and understanding what it’s prophetic meaning is, is not divination or fortunetelling. Otherwise, recognizing the impending fulfillment of any sort of prophecy would be divination or fortunetelling.
The position of the ‘stars’ were integral to the days set aside as God’s days, for the feasts of Israel. I, for one, believe the prophecies concerning Messiah are marked by the feats days.
Position of the sun and moon were the main sign posts with adjustments periodically for the 360 day year as the seasons would fall out of line over 40 years or so(over 40 years=200 days). Psssover was set via special lunar stipulations yearly.
Are the position of Moon and the Sun signs in the heavens? Does the position of stars in the background of the solar bodies locate the solar system bodies, like a clock turning past the markings of its face?
There is a difference when John says “he saw a sign of a woman” and then men try to fit astronomical data to fit what he saw....as opposed to Jesus when he says “all nations will mourn when they see the sign of the coming of the son of man in the heavens”. Jesus is predicting that a sign will occur that everyone will be able to see and they will know it is he that is coming onto the scene. The Bible predicts the loss of 8 hours of our 24 hour day with the loss of our moon light...that is a sign that the Bible says will happen. John saw the sign of a woman, he did not say we would see it though he did predict other signs that men will see and hear. Do you understand the difference?
The sign connected with the predicted events listed in Revelation reinforce each other. John connected the War in heaven with the sign for a reason.Now was he looking at a know star constellation when the Holy Spirit fleshed out the outlines into visionary allegory as well as giving a hint as to when this final war in heaven will happen....may be? Was he looking up into the heavens and God flashed a vision of a woman crowned in regal glory, painfully giving birth while a dragon waited to eat the child...may be? Yet John recorded a sign only he could see but the Bible is full of signs that it states all men will see. I’m a Berean...if there is a constellation star chart in the Bible countenanced by the Holy Spirit so I can study the spiritual significances of each of the stellar groups, then the vision John saw might make more sense in the astronomical sense.....but as the rest of Revelation 12 is taken into account, especially the mention of 1260 days, then the constellation view of the timing of the war in heaven makes less sense.
You see the sign explains what is happening that has made the dragon so angry. When the events of Revelation 12 occur the Earth has 3.5 years to endure being stuck with a very angry Devil and his minions who have been thrown out of heaven and locked down upon the Earth. He will be at war with Israel and with her spiritual remnants who “follow the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ”. That is why I have a problem with the September 23 dating via the “virgo interpretation”. For that interpretation to be true, we should have been 3.5 years into the 7 year tribulation already!(Which we are not)! Unless some are arguing that the first 3.5 years starts at this time. Yet we have not even had the Ezekial 38 wars yet in which Israel is attacked by a Northern Power which is destroyed directly by God himself!
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