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To: vladimir998
Anyway, the point is, that even as great an expert on Protestant soteriology as Alister McGrath ADMITS that Luther introduced NEW THINGS, NOVELTIES

There were some differences, this is true, but Augustine's views were very different than what Rome was teaching during Luther's time or even today. For example, Augustine taught that only the Elect can enter into heaven, and the Elect are those who specially receive grace unto salvation, which is not based on any foreseen good works, but on God's mercy alone. Those who do not enter into heaven were either not given grace at all, or were only given a little grace, which they could use to go very far, but ultimately had to be cast out.

This is not what Rome teaches today, as they teach--and even explicitly interpret verses Augustine used in opposite ways--a sort of universalism, where God grants grace, or at least offers, grace to all people. Augustine taught the exact opposite.

131 posted on 04/01/2017 12:35:04 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

“There were some differences, this is true, but Augustine’s views were very different than what Rome was teaching during Luther’s time or even today.”

I see no reason why I should take your word for it. What will now happen - if I were to bet - is that you’ll choose something that you think St. Augustine talked about in an exclusively Protestant mode, right? Let’s see.

“For example, Augustine taught that only the Elect can enter into heaven, and the Elect are those who specially receive grace unto salvation, which is not based on any foreseen good works, but on God’s mercy alone.”

Here are several problems. Your Protestant view of St. Augustine does not even necessarily agree with other Protestant views of St. Augustine so what is it worth as a view? You can have a Calvinist and Arminian argue over St. Augustine and both can be wrong. Also, Catholics believe that those who received into Heaven are there because of God’s grace and mercy. It is not based on any of our “foreseen good works” or our own, but God’s grace which we receive as a freely given gift in our faithfulness and in cooperating with God’s works within us. When Protestants start claiming they follow St. Augustine and others don’t I just can’t take that seriously. And I don’t see how anyone could do something like read David Meconi’s books, The One Christ: St. Augustine’s Theology of Deification, and square up St. Augustine’s theology with any Protestant soteriology. I think Protestants merely adapt St. Augustine to their liking.

“Those who do not enter into heaven were either not given grace at all, or were only given a little grace, which they could use to go very far, but ultimately had to be cast out.”

Look, I don’t claim to know what brand of Protestantism you most often buy, but if it’s Calvinism I just take that seriously. Calvinism seems like a dour concoction of samplings from Calvin’s interpretation of Scripture and St. Augustine. You might want to look at “Where Augustine Goes Beyond Calvin” in Augustine Through the Ages: An Encyclopedia edited by Allan Fitzgerald, John C. Cavadini (pages 118-119) just to get a taste of what I’m talking about it. Then immediately look at the section after that, “Where Calvin Went Beyond Augustine” (pages 119-120).

“This is not what Rome teaches today, as they teach—and even explicitly interpret verses Augustine used in opposite ways—a sort of universalism, where God grants grace, or at least offers, grace to all people. Augustine taught the exact opposite.”

I think the problem is your misunderstanding of St. Augustine and not any supposed Catholic misunderstanding of St. Augustine. Case in point: http://biblehub.com/library/pohle/grace_actual_and_habitual/section_3_the_universality_of.htm


143 posted on 04/01/2017 1:23:33 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Apparently I'm still living in your head rent free. At least now it isn't empty.)
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