Can an atheist lead a Protestant church? A battle over religion in Canada.

Washington Post ^ | September 29, 2016 | Alan Freeman

[C19fan]

The Rev. Gretta Vosper is a dynamic, activist minister with a loyal following at her Protestant congregation in suburban Toronto. She is also an outspoken atheist. “We don’t talk about God,” Vosper said in an interview, describing services at her West Hill United Church, adding that it’s time the church gave up on “the idolatry of a theistic god.”

[ealgeone]

22Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 1 John 2:22-23 NASB

John clearly tells us who is antichrist. The one denying Jesus is the Christ.

This person is an antichrist.

[ealgeone]

Protestant reasoning leads (or, can lead) to some unusual places.

To be clear...this "church" is not a Christian church.

[boatbums]

“We don’t talk about God,” Vosper said in an interview, describing services at her West Hill United Church, adding that it’s time the church gave up on “the idolatry of a theistic god.” Vosper’s decision to reject God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit and to turn her church into a haven for nonbelievers “looking for a community that will help them create meaningful lives without God” has become too much even for the liberal-minded United Church of Canada.

Note: a liberal minded church even finds atheistic ministers too much. It should have been too much when a woman was chosen to be the leader of their church..."hardcore" Calvinist churches usually don't.

[boatbums]

Second, it is not the ideas of the Reformation that directly leads to the downfall of these denominations. It is the abandoning of Biblical teachings to follow the traditions of men that leads to this outcome.

Well said! The "blame" lies not in the principles of the Reformation but in the loss of principles of those who lead.

[boatbums]

The Catholic Church--- even under Pope Francis --- doesn't have rejectors of the Nicene Creed, women pastors, lesbian or gay marriages, atheists or abortion-enthusiasts at the pulpit, "teachers" who call theism idolatry, open deniers of the authority of Scripture or the deity of Christ, etc. But other than that, yeah.

You sure about that? There's Jean Meslier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Meslier:

Jean Meslier (French: [melje]; also Mellier; 15 June 1664[1] – 17 June 1729), was a French Catholic priest (abbé) who was discovered, upon his death, to have written a book-length philosophical essay promoting atheism. Described by the author as his "testament" to his parishioners, the text denounces all religion.

Then there's http://joearmstrong.ie/atheist-priestsoh-me-of-little-faith/:

Joe Armstrong talks to the priests who feel trapped in their ministries – because they dare not tell their flocks they have become atheists.

While 115 cardinals deliberate upon who will be the next pope, all around the world many priests have a far greater crisis: their unbelief in God.

Atheist clergy – Catholic and Protestant – who have outgrown their religious faith often feel trapped financially, personally and professionally. Typical is Adam, an atheist clergyman interviewed for an American television documentary using a pseudonym, a disguised voice and being shown on film in heavy shadow lest he be identified. These measures emphasised the huge risks atheist clergy take in going public: job, livelihood, security, home, community, friends and even marriage can be at stake.

A long-time cleric untrained for any secular job, Adam doesn’t want to risk his family’s financial security. “I wear a mask every day,” he said. “I am trapped. My greatest fear is doing nothing and pretending to be someone I am not for the rest of my life.”

He is one of the founders of the Clergy Project, an online community of more than 400 atheist clergy, Catholic and Protestant, a quarter of whom remain in active ministry. Several of its members live in Ireland. In his bestselling 1980s book Help my Unbelief, Michael Paul Gallagher, a Jesuit priest, included a chapter entitled Saying Mass an Atheist.

And SOME CATHOLIC PRIESTS ARE ATHEISTS - SOME NEVER PRAY

I don't see how anyone can claim unequivocally that their church "doesn't have rejectors...atheists, etc."

[HarleyD]

While I was in the service there was some degree of separation. Only Catholic priest could serve Catholics, Protestant pastors could vary Protestant church roles, etc. Now I’m not so sure what is happening and what you state wouldn’t surprise me.

[boatbums]

The term “Protestant” was originally intended to mean Christian and not RC. However, in today’s secular world it is easily now inferred to mean anything but Catholic.

Even some FRoman Catholics make that inference as well.

[Mrs. Don-o]

I mean open atheists. There are no effective church disciplines against secret sinners, and I presume every church has liars. In the Catholic Church, though, an *openly* atheistic priest would be suspended a divinis. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify this.

[Mark17]

I find it hard to avoid laughing when even considering the concept of a State sponsored church.

I think Islam is the defacto state sponsored church of the US government.

[daniel1212]

It appears that this is the case.

Or does it?

It’s funny that Biblical literalists, who will confess in the blink of an eye that God has feathers or that reading Harry Potter is practicing sorcery can ignore Christ’s simple declarative sentences about Peter and the Eucharist.

25 posted on 3/4/2015, 5:53:21 PM by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise. .)

[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 >

[daniel1212]

The Catholic Church--- even under Pope Francis --- doesn't have rejectors of the Nicene Creed, women pastors, lesbian or gay marriages, atheists or abortion-enthusiasts at the pulpit, "teachers" who call theism idolatry, open deniers of the authority of Scripture or the deity of Christ, etc.

There is no comparison here btwn Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, while you mean openly reject such things as listed, for besides openly supporting many open denies of core beliefs, a 2002 nationwide poll of 1,854 priests in the United States and Puerto Rico reported that 19% of Roman Catholic priests affirmed that it was never a sin to engage in homosexual behavior, while 25 percent said it often was a sin, and less than half (49%) affirmed that it was always a sin.

And 19 percent responded that it often was wrong for a woman to get an abortion, and 4 percent that is seldom/never was.

28 percent judged that is always was sin for married couples to use artificial birth control, 25 percent often, 40 percent never.

[daniel1212]

Unbelief, Michael Paul Gallagher, a Jesuit priest, included a chapter entitled Saying Mass an Atheist. And SOME CATHOLIC PRIESTS ARE ATHEISTS - SOME NEVER PRAY

It appears the condition in Ireland is far worse than here.

I don't see how anyone can claim unequivocally that their church "doesn't have rejectors...atheists, etc."

Or restrict absence of church discipline as only concerning secret sinners, or imagine that relegating clear Biblical historical accounts to being "fables" or "folk tales" in official RC translations is not that of openly denying the authority of Scripture, but often our own (even mine) desired image sometimes overcomes reality.

[CrazyIvan]

Very iformative. Thank yoy.

[Salvation]

I don’t see how this can really be a protestant church.

[ealgeone]

Protestant reasoning leads (or, can lead) to some unusual places.

Guess you missed this post from jim noble.

Not to even mention the title of the thread.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Unless those priests signed their responses, that 2002 poll was an anonymous survey, and we're still talking about secret sin.

If they were open --- preaching, for example --- that sodomy and abortion were not sins, I would be shocked if they were not suspended.

That's not to deny moral corruption among the Catholic clergy. I think that rather than open moral dissent, what you'll find is corrupt priests living a secret double life, and in public, they rely on equivocation, ambiguity, wing-nod and silence --- in other word, hypocrisy and cowardice --- rather than overt, in-your-face moral apostasy.

In my diocese (Knoxville) a few years back, two such priests were instantly fired from all assignments and suspended a divinis as soon as our Bishop saw what was up.`

`

`

[daniel1212]

Unless those priests signed their responses, that 2002 poll was an anonymous survey, and we're still talking about secret sin. If they were open --- preaching, for example --- that sodomy and abortion were not sins, I would be shocked if they were not suspended. That's not to deny moral corruption among the Catholic clergy. I think that rather than open moral dissent, what you'll find is corrupt priests living a secret double life, and in public, they rely on equivocation, ambiguity, wing-nod and silence --- in other word, hypocrisy and cowardice --- rather than overt, in-your-face moral apostasy. In my diocese (Knoxville) a few years back, two such priests were instantly fired from all assignments and suspended a divinis as soon as our Bishop saw what was up.` Seriously, you do not need to be openly preaching, for example --- that sodomy and abortion were not sins, when you publicly affirm those that do as members in life and in death, and even defend their right to the Catholic Eucharist (its aberration being a different issue).

Pope Benedict even graciously responded to a letter from Teddy K. piously stating that he “never failed to believe and respect the fundamental teachings” of his church, and tried to be a faithful Catholic, etc.. Not a word of remorse about supporting abortion or promoting homosexual rights - which were part of his fight against discrimination, or promoting indolence and a welfare state.

And what see from the report of the papal response is no chastisement, but it read in part: "The Holy Father ... was saddened to know of your illness, and has asked me to assure you of his concern and his spiritual closeness. He is particularly grateful for your promise of prayers for him and for the needs of the universal church.

"His Holiness prays that in the days ahead you may be sustained in faith and hope, and granted the precious grace of joyful surrender to the will of God our merciful father. He invokes upon you the consolation and peace promised by the risen Savior to all who share in his sufferings and trust in his promise of eternal life.."

"Commending you and the members of your family to the loving intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Holy Father cordially imparts his apostolic blessing as a pledge of wisdom, comfort and strength in the Lord." (http://www.thebostonpilot.com/articleprint.asp?id=10800

And who was given a church funeral, as was Chavez, Mayor Menino, etc, thus showing their interpretation of canon law. Who needs to be openly preaching that sodomy and abortion are not sins when publicly known promoters of such are not Biblically disciplined but even graciously affirmed as members?

[Mrs. Don-o]

Catholics who procure abortions and those who formally cooperate with them are excommunicated latae sentenciae (automatically).

According to Canon Law, the onus to exclude unrepentant grave sinners from Communion lies both with the minister of the Eucharist (person who distributes Communion) and with the offenders themselves.

Can. 915 Those upon whom the penalty of excommunication or interdict has been imposed or declared, and others who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin, are not to be admitted to holy communion.

Can. 916 Anyone who is conscious of grave sin may not celebrate Mass or receive the Body of the Lord without previously having been to sacramental confession, unless there is a grave reason and there is no opportunity to confess; in this case the person is to remember the obligation to make an act of perfect contrition, which includes the resolve to go to confession as soon as possible.

That's Canon Law as it stands.

The utter failure to preach 916 and to enforce 915 is at the root of the dirty rotten scandal which is corrupting the souls of laity and clergy alike.

Good doctrine, bad (or no) disciple.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Typo correction:

"Good doctrine, bad (or no) discipline."

[Mrs. Don-o]

Something I sometimes think I'd like to see for real:

Excommunication scene from Beckett