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To: BroJoeK
Sorry, but the truth of this matter is: that analogy is almost exact, including the fact that both Lincoln and Franklin Roosevelt were warned that sending naval forces to Sumter or Pearl could “provoke” an enemy attack, and both ignored the warnings.

One would have to accept your strawmen in order to concede the analogies are relevant to begin with. Ok, so I'll play for the moment.

The South's "enemy attack" upon Lincoln's instigators? After the Union troops (customs enforcement) inside Fort Sumter refused to vacate it, Confederate forces opened fire on it with cannons. Union instigators surrendered without casualty -- except for two soldiers killed when their cannon exploded. NOT exactly "Pearl Harbor, was it?

This was more like a mere baseball brush-back exchange between two teams comprised of cousins; Pearl Harbor was a one-sided brawl, with Visitor Japan stacking the stadium with hooligans and ruffians, mugging and murdering its hosts.

America had prevented Japan from buying much needed rubber and war supplies due to its aggression against China and its sphere of influence. Frustrated, Japan at first tried to send ambassadors in order to negotiate and tamp down America's hardline stance.

LINCOLN's policy OTOH was strangling the American South labor/resource-rich cousins unfairly with high tariffs and import taxes; Ironically treating the South like ITS slave.

Dishonest socialist FDR didn't care if he ruffled Japan's feathers, period. Moreover, the US had broken Japan's code. Yes, he and the PTB *knew* exactly when Japan was going to bomb Pearl and used the incident to force the US into a war in the Pacific.

Lincoln also needed an "Incident" to get the uppity, secession-minded South back in line. Fort Sumter was as good an instigation as any. Except that it almost backfired on Dishonest Abe and his Northern, profiteering Industrialist overlords.

History always repeats itself, sadly.

320 posted on 06/28/2016 2:11:25 PM PDT by HangUpNow
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To: HangUpNow
This was more like a mere baseball brush-back exchange between two teams comprised of cousins; Pearl Harbor was a one-sided brawl, with Visitor Japan stacking the stadium with hooligans and ruffians, mugging and murdering its hosts.

Well, no. There was a stand-off, a war of nerves. That could have lasted longer. Confederates could have waited until Lincoln fired the first shot. But they didn't. Once the shooting started it was war and there was no going back.

Comparing Fort Sumter to some later, worse incident doesn't change that fact. Jefferson Davis and the Confederates weren't Hitler and the Nazis, but that doesn't mean that Northerners were going to ignore the beginning of the war. Insults to the flag were serious things back then.

LINCOLN's policy OTOH was strangling the American South labor/resource-rich cousins unfairly with high tariffs and import taxes; Ironically treating the South like ITS slave.

The tariff had only been passed a few weeks before the secessionists started the war. Everybody expected that there would be some upward revision of import duties. Southerners could have stayed in Congress and kept the expected increase to a minimum if that was what they really wanted. But they didn't. The secessionists wanted a country of their own to safequard their "domestic institutions" (slavery) and the leaders were more than willing to risk war to get independence and territory.

323 posted on 06/28/2016 4:11:27 PM PDT by x
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To: HangUpNow
HangUpNow: "Union instigators surrendered without casualty -- except for two soldiers killed when their cannon exploded.
NOT exactly "Pearl Harbor, was it?"

Sorry FRiend, but Union troops in Fort Sumter "instigated" nothing, and your claiming they did reveals that you have problems sticking to the truth, and nothing but the truth, don't you?
Nor is there evidence those troops in early 1861 had anything to do with "customs enforcement".

Regardless, you also forget that relative military scales changed dramatically between Fort Sumter and Pearl Harbor.
In early 1861 the entire Union army was only circa 17,000 most scattered in small forts out west.
So compared to the entire army of the time, and other forts, Sumter was hugely significant, nearly as significant as was Pearl Harbor in 1941, compared to nearing two million US military already on duty elsewhere.

And those two Union troops killed surely died as much from Confederate action as any others in the war.

HangUpNow: "LINCOLN's policy OTOH was strangling the American South labor/resource-rich cousins unfairly with high tariffs and import taxes; Ironically treating the South like ITS slave."

Total complete rubbish, since Lincoln took office on March 4 and ordered resupply of Fort Sumter around April 6, iirc.
One month during which Lincoln's biggest concerns were focused on matters like Virginia's secession convention and resupply of Fort Sumter.
So your words here are pure fantasy.

HangUpNow: "Yes, he and the PTB *knew* exactly when Japan was going to bomb Pearl and used the incident to force the US into a war in the Pacific."

The historical evidence on Pearl Harbor shows clearly that Washington suspected a Japanese attack was coming somewhere and soon, and so all the relevant commanders were sent war-warnings -- from MacArthur in the Philippines to Kimmel & Short in Hawaii.
As it turned out, none responded appropriately to these warnings, at least in hind-sight.

But the evidence also shows expectations of attack were the Philippines or Singapore, not Pearl Harbor.
Regardless, even with the war-warning and the first attack on Pearl Harbor, even MacArthur in the Philippines was not fully prepared when that attack came, and so was soon defeated.

Point is that blaming Lincoln for Fort Sumter is like saying that Roosevelt "attacked the Japanese" at Pearl Harbor!
And if that really is your opinion, FRiend, then you've left the world of the sane for a fantasy realm of your own creation.

324 posted on 06/28/2016 4:23:02 PM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective...)
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