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To: rustbucket
The map shown by first link in my post 1536 might define the Southern states, but I'm not sure what the various books of economic data mean by the term. I suspect the term, the West, may refer to the Midwest.

What makes it unclear are these categories "Oil, spermaceti -- Oil, whale and other fish Whalebone". You aren't going to get that from the Midwest.

As you pointed out above, gold and silver were largely the products of California and Nevada. They aren't credited to the West in the first link I provided in post 1530.

I don't think gold and silver should be counted in the analysis in which I am interested because they did not rely on Southern production and therefore would not have been affected by the South becoming an independent nation.

Only those economic factors affected by Southern independence should be cited as causing economic damage to the North, and especially economic damage to New York, because that is where I think the "Shadow Government" mentioned in the FBI investigation of Hillary, was centered at that time.

Yes, i'm noticing uncanny parallels between then and now.

That source credits gold and silver to the East.

Were there any significant gold and silver mines in the East?

The East didn't produce enough products to purchase what they imported so that region had to pay cash to buy imports. The cash probably came from items they sold the West and the South at tariff-inflated prices. One could argue that the East had a trade deficit they made up for with cash taken from the rest of the country by means of the protective tariff.

And this is no small point. That protectionism by government policy affected domestic purchases too. It basically resulted in a concentration of wealth and power in the region being "protected." As you mentioned, they could sell products at inflated prices to the detriment of others who had to pay them.

Southern independence upset that applecart too. With the South no longer constrained by the protectionist policies of the North, they would have been eventually able to supply the products which were previously coming from Northern businesses. Because the prices would have been lower, the shift of business to the South would be virtually guaranteed.

They could have supplied goods and services to the Midwest and territories, and eventually brought them into their orbit. Both Economic and Political power would have shifted to the South at the expense of the North.

Very frightening prospect if you are the chief beneficiary of the protectionist policies.

1,554 posted on 10/21/2016 6:47:36 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: DiogenesLamp; rustbucket; jmacusa
DiogenesLamp: "What makes it unclear are these categories "Oil, spermaceti -- Oil, whale and other fish Whalebone".
You aren't going to get that from the Midwest."

That and other examples (i.e., cotton cloth) demonstrate that the author of this report was fudging the numbers to make political points which were not otherwise viable.

DiogenesLamp: "I don't think gold and silver should be counted in the analysis in which I am interested because they did not rely on Southern production and therefore would not have been affected by the South becoming an independent nation."

But specie exports are critical in answering the question: what percent of Federal tariff revenues were paid for by Deep Confederate South exports?
The answer is: roughly half since the US trade deficit was balanced by specie exports.

DiogenesLamp: "Only those economic factors affected by Southern independence should be cited as causing economic damage to the North, and especially economic damage to New York"

We already know exactly what the effect was: when Deep South cotton exports disappeared in 1861 it caused Federal revenues to decline by 26%.
That was far less than "total disaster".

DiogenesLamp: "And this is no small point.
That protectionism by government policy affected domestic purchases too.
It basically resulted in a concentration of wealth and power in the region being 'protected.' "

Wrong again.
First, tariffs protect all manufacturers, east, west, south or north.
Second, what New York imported did not necessarily stay in New York.
Much was re-shipped and sold in other regions.

DiogenesLamp: "Southern independence upset that applecart too.
With the South no longer constrained by the protectionist policies of the North, they would have been eventually able to supply the products which were previously coming from Northern businesses.
Because the prices would have been lower, the shift of business to the South would be virtually guaranteed."

Nonsense since actual Confederate tariffs, from February through June 1861, were virtually the same as Union tariffs they could do nothing except add to the tariff burden of products purchased in Union states.
The new Confederate tariffs, which may have been slightly lower, did not take effect until September 1861, at which point most all Southern trade had ended.

So the only serious consequence of Confederate economics was the eliminate cotton and that reduced Union revenues by 26% in 1861, after which they grew again very rapidly.

DiogenesLamp: "They could have supplied goods and services to the Midwest and territories, and eventually brought them into their orbit."

No possible way, since merchants would then have to pay two tariffs -- first the Confederate, then Union -- so it would be cheaper to import through New York and ship west by rail.


1,561 posted on 10/21/2016 10:04:00 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective...)
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