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To: jmacusa
And you can't escape the fact the South fought a war to preserve slavery and lost.

Nope. Slavery was already preserved. Lincoln even gave his assurances that he would continue it.

How about you stop lying about this? The South went to war because the North Invaded. The South seceded so that they could keep more of the profits their slaves were earning in Europe, and the New York Power barons sicced the FedGov on em to get back those profits they lost.

See that pile of coins? That's what New York wanted back, and they pulled the strings of their Agent in Washington D.C. to do it. All that talk about fighting to end slavery was just jive talk to justify the disaster they caused. This thing blew up in their faces, and they had to justify the lives they threw away for greed.

The war was about money. If the South wasn't making money that the New York Empire builders wanted, nobody would have given a sh*t what the South did.

1,038 posted on 09/19/2016 7:01:46 PM PDT by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: DiogenesLamp
The [Civil War] was about money.

That's just a pathetic bit of historical revisionism.

If the South wasn't making money that the New York Empire builders wanted, nobody would have given a sh*t what the South did.

Nonsense. Abolitionism as a moral concept predated the American Revolution, and was seen as a glaring contradiction from the very beginning. By the time the Civil War arrived, Abolitionism had grown into a formidable national movement.

The Civil War was about Slavery. The Southern States saw the writing on wall, and the inevitable reality that Slavery would, someday soon, be outlawed by the United States federal government, via Constitutional means.

You can post your graphics all you want, but the reason hundreds of thousands of middle class Northern parents were willing to send their sons off to die in a Civil War wasn't to protect the economic interests of greedy uber-rich Northerners. Without the righteous cause of ending Slavery, the willpower and impetus simply wouldn't have existed for the North to fight the Civil War.

The South seceded so that they could keep more of the profits their slaves were earning in Europe, and the New York Power barons sicced the FedGov on em to get back those profits they lost.

The South seceded to perpetuate Slavery, and they did precisely that when they authored the Confederate constitution. Were the economic considerations you cite a factor in the causes of the Civil War? Of course. Were they the central issue? Of course not.

The Confederate constitution, with its explicit embrace of Negro Slavery, was adopted on March 11, 1861, a full month before the bombardment of Fort Sumter which commenced armed hostilities. In both tone and legal content, it went far beyond the U.S. Constitution in its expansive embrace of Slavery. Thus, Slavery wasn't some afterthought incorporated when framing the Confederacy: it was the bedrock principle upon which the new nation was founded.

If, as you say, the Civil War was "about money", then why did the framers of the Confederacy find it so necessary to expand on Slavery so much in its founding document?

Indeed, almost the only differences between the U.S. Constitution and the Confederate one revolve around the institution of Slavery.

If the Civil War wasn't about Slavery, then I guess the Confederacy shouldn't have designed their constitution around the concept before the war even started.

Your thesis is false.

Vote Trump!

1,040 posted on 09/19/2016 8:11:47 PM PDT by sargon (Anyone AWOL in the battle against Hillary is not a patriot. It's that simple.)
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To: DiogenesLamp
The plantation owners that could retain ownership and ship independently found themselves in a bind. If they wanted to ship their own cotton to market, the packet ship owner would charge them very high rates that were slightly under the rate of the foreign ship rate, plus the Federal shipping penalty that would be added.
The success of the shipping business produced larger and faster transoceanic freight ships. These larger ships required 18 to 22 feet of depth to operate.
Sandbars at the mouth of the Mississippi, and particularly at the shallow Charleston harbor presented the merchants with a major obstacle to using the more efficient new shipping. Northern shipbuilders solved this problem with a unique vessel of shallow draft that had an almost perfectly flat bottom.
This made it possible to clear the sandbars without getting stuck. An added benefit was that now bales of cotton could fit more easily in the flat-floored hold and carrying capacity was greatly increased. At first, the sailing qualities of such a vessel was doubted, but soon, to the relief of their owners, these flat-bottomed ships proved to have fine sailing qualities. These were the ships used in the coastal trade.
With these technical advancements, cotton was loaded onto the coastal packets, shipped to New York via these fast boats, offloaded to warehousing,and shipped out on the large V-bottomed ships that sailed the high seas to Liverpool.
All along the way, the middlemen took their cut and New York merchants prospered.
Regularly scheduled coastal packet shipping became a very lucrative trade. Stevedores, dock workers, warehouse owners now had lots of work. Insurance agents, bankers, accountants, livery agents, boat builders, riggers,and cargo shippers vastly benefited.
Wharf owners stayed busy and Atlantic packets sailed eastward on the “Downhill Passage” with full cargoes and stayed very busy for years.
With the control of the transportation trade business being dominated by Northern interests, and now being vastly aided by the Warehousing Act, southern planters began to complain.
Many estimated that New York merchants were making 40 cents on every dollar, but being constantly in debt to the New Yorkers, they were hardly in a position to change this state of affairs.
The Northern business interests were in full control of the market. However, by the end of the antebellum period, with southern ship building beginning to establish itself, improvements in both New Orleans and Mobile Bay harbors, and South Carolina's self-financed dredging of Charleston arbor, the entire northern shipping combine was about to become vulnerable to direct European trade.
Suddenly, secession totally eliminated the transportation of Southern goods. This brought about a 60% drop in volume for all the Northern operators....IMMEDIATELY.
Lincoln's office became filled with Governors and businessmen immediately after his inauguration.



1,045 posted on 09/20/2016 5:07:14 AM PDT by WarIsHellAintItYall
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To: DiogenesLamp; jmacusa
DiogenesLamp: "Slavery was already preserved.
Lincoln even gave his assurances that he would continue it.
How about you stop lying about this?
The South went to war because the North Invaded."

How about you stop lying about this?

In fact the Confederacy provoked, started, declared and prosecuted war on the United States months before a single Confederate soldier died in battle and before any Union army invaded a single Confederate state.

So the Confederacy went to war because it wanted to, not because of any Union invasion.
Further the Confederacy continued to fight their war for years after defeat became inevitable, but a "kinder & gentler" peace was still easily negotiable.

1,171 posted on 10/01/2016 11:10:41 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective...)
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