Posted on 06/23/2016 2:32:04 AM PDT by UKrepublican
Voting is under way in a historic referendum on whether the UK should remain a member of the European Union or leave. A record 46,499,537 people are entitled to take part, according to provisional figures from the Electoral Commission. Polling stations opened at 07:00 BST and will close at 22:00 BST. It is only the third nationwide referendum in UK history and comes after a four-month battle for votes between the Leave and Remain campaigns. In common with other broadcasters, the BBC is limited in what it can report while polls are open but you can follow the results as they come in across the BBC after polls close on Thursday evening.
(Excerpt) Read more at bbc.co.uk ...
I just do. No real knowledge - the Scots choked on their own independence. I hope I’m wrong because I think this will be a good harbinger for Trump.
It seems evenly split among people I talk to. Some want to remain for the inane reason that flights to Greece are cheap under the EU.
Yes the UK and the USA are in very similar positions. The UK needs to leave the EU and the USA needs to elect Trump. If either nations fails to do so that nation will effectively be absorbed into the NWO. The only advantage the USA has is that a lot of it’s citizens are well armed and could put up a fight inside a seceding state like say Texas. Should Hillary win Texas seceding becomes a possibility. Not likely by any means just not out of the question, black helicopter stuff.
If they exit will they be able to take their country back from the muslims?
Quite likely, the vote is non binding.
“We won’t have another referendum for years - by then we will have been so diluted, and EU will have expanded in every way - it will be over for us, or at best generations of people will be confined to suffering.”
Sounds just like the US should Trump not prevail.
We live in scary times for the common people.
That is probably one of the biggest reasoning people have in things like the E.U.
They can get their instant gratification.
I am not knocking the U.K. for that either, the U.S.A. is even worse, look at our school system, is pure unadulterated B.S. anymore, but people don't want to change it because that would cause so many waves in their own life.
“The vast majority of US citizens are totally self absorbed, ill-educated and clueless. “
The planned dumbing down of our education system has its desired effect.
The United Kingdom has had 12 referendums. All were non binding - they have to be under the principle of parliamentary sovereignty that is at the core of the British constitution (Parliament cannot be bound to any action - part of the reason some people want to leave the EU is because of a belief that EU membership could eventually violate that core principle).
Even though all twelve were non-binding, in every single case, the necessary legislation to give effect to their decision was passed. That is expected and there's no reason to expect it to be any different this time.
The pointing out that it's "non-binding" is a tactic being used by some people to try and influence people's vote (in particular to try and depress the leave vote) and should not be given any real credence.
If Parliament chose to ignore the referendum result, it would trigger a major constitutional crisis that would bring down the Prime Minister, and probably the government that did it.
The most that is likely to happen is a large number (potentially as many as two thirds) of MPs abstaining from the vote to avoid having to cast a vote against their wish - leaving 250 or so to vote 'Aye' to the legislation needed.
What do you think will happen? Have you ever been to the U.K.?
I know you are from New Zealand, what do they think of the Brexit? :)
Oh, absolutely! If we had something like the EU (as Ted Cruz’s wife wanted) you’d see people going down to Mexican resorts to get drunk on a regular basis - especially if the flights cost 50 bucks a pop. I guess that’s the bone the politicians throw to ordinary people in exchange for their freedom.
Yes I’ve been reading your posts, I’m not from the UK so I am getting and education on how the UK government operates :)
The British constitution (and where it is still relevant, it’s effects on the other Commonwealth Realms) is a pretty major hobby of mine. It’s not well understood even in the UK and the Commonwealth - one thing I’ve always admired is how many Americans seem to have a decent understanding of their Constitution and understand its importance. Brits - and others in the Commonwealth - tend to take ours for granted.
A good reference: How the First World War Inspired the EU
Now, why would this be of any importance?
Two reasons: Firstly it shows the anti-democratic bent of Monnet (and of his followers). It wasn't the fact that the Germans had voted in Hitler, but the fact that the Germans (and other peoples in Europe) had (in Monnet's warped mind) forced the politicans to start the Great War. Monnet considered that terrible tragedy a consequence of popular governance, and wanted to return to a rule by experts and unelected bureaucrats. Anyone who has read anything about the start of the first wold war knows that all decisions leading to the war was taken by a few politicians, crowned heads, and generals, and the citizens of the warring states had absolutely no say in the matter.
Even in democratic England the final decision was taken by a small number of government ministers (and possibly king George V) after a very short debated in the House.
So, the "Establishment" made a mess of things, but the common man was given the blame....
Secondly, from the real history of the beginnigns of the EU it is evident that the idea was to hinder a new WWI. But much had changed after the second world war; the Cold War, the nuclear deterrence, and NATO made a fourth war between Germany and France not only unlikely but actually impossible. Thus, the raison d´être of the EU - to prevent a new European war had already been overtaken by events.
Literal Bread and Circuses.
But then, we have that already, so many businesses don't want anything done about Illegal Immigration, but that is cheap labor, paid under the table, without having to worry about Insurance and all that.
Again, instant gratification without giving a damn about the consequences.
I know several people who love vacationing in Mexico, because it is so cheap. When I quiz then as to "Why" I get a blank stare.
Because Mexico is Dirt Poor and a Crime Ridden Hell-Hole. So much so their own people don't want to live there.
"But, The Resort was so nice, I never had to open a door once the whole time I was there"
A near Mirror of Greece and the U.K.
Greece is broker than broke and the Pound, I am sure, goes a Long way there.
Bfl
Well your common law, and written law predate King John I (King Edward forced to sign a doc those name I don’t recall, “liberties something” John forced to sign Magna Charta) so there a lot of law there. Our Constitution (and Declaration of Independence) are comparable recent and pretty much straight forward in it’s intention. Our courts have managed to make a mess of things but original intent is easy to understand.
Thanks for your comment.
I was surprised to see Forsyth writing for such a low brow publication such as the Express.
It all boils down to the divide with roots in Ancient Greece, doesn’t it?
I wonder if people here have read “The Open Society and Its Enemies” by Popper.
Should the people have the right to govern themselves, or should the people be governed by philosopher kings (EU bureaucrats)
It’s been a long time since I read the book, but if I remember correctly Popper came down on the side of liberal democracy comparing it to science. It allows a government to try different things, but the society can reject the hypothesis as it were.
Personally as an addendum to the debate...
I feel the sort system of ethics you have is important. If a benevolent non-democratic government gave the most happiness to the most ammount of people, aka utilitarian ethics, would that be preferable to liberty and a free society.
Now most empirical evidence seems to suggest democracies do work the best, but we don’t have centuries of data to analyze.
But, in my experience a lot of people only vote for their own pocket book, hence the scaremongering in this referendum has been effective, especially on younger people. They would sacrifice liberty for short term economic gain.
ok, enough rambling.
Good to see you Scaniaboy :)
Yes, you are right, Popper certainly came down on the side of non-elite governance. He, just like Friedrich Hayek, understood that the philosopher kings would not be kings for very long - ie the difficulty to gather/understand all the information needed to rule society at large would make the rational governing of our societies impossible.
Instead Adam Smith's hidden hand was much more effective than an ever so enlightened elite. Yes, the individual may make bad, shortsighted choices (see discussions on this thread about “bread and circuses”), but then again the “enlightened elite” very rarely remains enlightened for very long.
Our unelected EU commissars (commissioners) serve as a prime example. What policy have they ever instituted that has been effective and proper?
Does the queen’s wishes (leave/remain) have bearing, or is she obliged to follow the results?
Where does the queen lean on this issue, do you think?
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