Posted on 05/05/2016 6:39:38 AM PDT by richardtavor
As this dystopian election campaign has unfolded, my mind keeps being tugged by a passage in Plato’s Republic. It has unsettled — even surprised — me from the moment I first read it in graduate school. The passage is from the part of the dialogue where Socrates and his friends are talking about the nature of different political systems, how they change over time, and how one can slowly evolve into another. And Socrates seemed pretty clear on one sobering point: that “tyranny is probably established out of no other regime than democracy.” What did Plato mean by that? Democracy, for him, I discovered, was a political system of maximal freedom and equality, where every lifestyle is allowed and public offices are filled by a lottery. And the longer a democracy lasted, Plato argued, the more democratic it would become. Its freedoms would multiply; its equality spread. Deference to any sort of authority would wither; tolerance of any kind of inequality would come under intense threat; and multiculturalism and sexual freedom would create a city or a country like “a many-colored cloak decorated in all hues.”
This rainbow-flag polity, Plato argues, is, for many people, the fairest of regimes. The freedom in that democracy has to be experienced to be believed — with shame and privilege in particular emerging over time as anathema. But it is inherently unstable. As the authority of elites fades, as Establishment values cede to popular ones, views and identities can become so magnificently diverse as to be mutually uncomprehending. And when all the barriers to equality, formal and informal, have been removed; when everyone is equal; when elites are despised and full license is established to do “whatever one wants,” you arrive at what might be called late-stage democracy. There is no kowtowing to authority here, let alone to political experience or expertise.
Bwa hahahah.
Translation: “Democracies end when they no longer let tyrannical elites control them.”
For those people that have turned their brains off now that they have have a nominee, now is the time to reflect on truth and be aware of all of it. We have been in perilous times and are headed for worse times. I would encourage everyone to become a critical thinker and let the emotions of the moment pass.
Democracies end when people vote? OK
I refuse to endure Andy but did he mention the imposition of his leftist agenda, including his precious ‘gay marriage’ by strict judicial fiat?
There is nothing less democratic than the Supreme Court.
Perilous! Perilous I say unto thee! In fact a perilous is going on sale for the next 6 months!
Sorry Andrew but countries run by elites always devolve into hellholes ... For reasons unknown elites tend to feather their own nests and the nests of their friends AND then they start to fear the people they're ripping off.
Andrew - the reason you think it would be different here is because you see yourself as belonging to the ‘elites’ who run the place. But tell me, WHAT country run by self appointed ‘elites’ would you like to live in WHERE YOU WERE NOT part of the ruling class?
Come on Andrew - give me your list... Any South American hellholes? Or those in the ME? Cuba? North Korea? China? Iran? Different ideologies but these hellholes all have one thing in common - they're run by leaders who are sure they're ‘oh so much smarter’ than the people...Wake up Andrew.
Sorry Andrew but countries run by elites always devolve into hellholes ... For reasons unknown elites tend to feather their own nests and the nests of their friends AND then they start to fear the people they're ripping off.
Andrew - the reason you think it would be different here is because you see yourself as belonging to the ‘elites’ who run the place. But tell me, WHAT country run by self appointed ‘elites’ would you like to live in WHERE YOU WERE NOT part of the ruling class?
Come on Andrew - give me your list... Any South American hellholes? Or those in the ME? Cuba? North Korea? China? Iran? Different ideologies but these hellholes all have one thing in common - they're run by leaders who are sure they're ‘oh so much smarter’ than the people...Wake up Andrew.
Every time the people begin to express their desire, we are solemnly warned that democracy is evil. Apparently if the elites run unchecked, that’s wonderful and good.
Yes we all know democracy is bad. But so is a system that is wildly ignoring the will of the people.
Our Founders understood this, which is why they established a government with four parts, each increasingly removed from democracy: the directly-voted-on House, the voted-on-by-state-legislatures Senate, the chosen-by-electors President, and the chosen-by-President-and-Senate Supreme Court. The Senate was Aristotle’s oligarchs keeping the demos House from foolishness, the House (where all spending had to start) was the people keeping the oligarchs from taking over power, the President was the check on both the House and Senate with veto power, and the Supreme Court settled disputes that arose in spite of, or because of, the House, Senate, and President.
We no longer have this. The House is directly voted, the Senate is directly voted, the President might as well be directly voted, and the Supreme Court is the vassal of whoever happens to have been directly-elected in the Senate and the White House—there hasn’t been a single non-politically-motivated major decision by SCOTUS since before Brown v. Board of Education.
We already have a President-as-Emperor with a go-along-to-get-along Senate and SCOTUS. Going forward, the difference between President Hillary and President Donald is not that one cares about the Founders and the other does not; rather, the difference is that she’s the left’s *itch and he’s not, so the country will be better served by his Presidency than by hers. But don’t kid yourselves: we’ve turned a corner, leaving the Constitution behind, and I fear we will never return to retrieve it again.
The election of Donald Trump represents a peaceful revolution of the American people against an overbearing elitist leftist aristocracy. Without this peaceful revolution we would be facing a future violent revolution with the strong possibility of a breakup of the United States.
There is a strong word of caution in that statement. I believe there is a great bit of truth to understand but I think many may be blinded by the moment, or by their specific candidate/s to understand the broader implications. But this is largely due the nature of our minds.
Regardless of what side you are on, be careful what you wish for. We can’t have it both ways. The masses shouldn’t be who elect our leaders, but at the same time, we want the people to feel connected and empowered toward the leaders. I have no idea what the ideal solution is, but to believe that the masses will make the right decision is lunacy. It’s only a matter of time and circumstance that will lead us to civil-war.
Anyway, Socrates words ring true to me, I think true democracies are doomed to fail. But perhaps the broader more important question: Are all governments doomed to failure? If that is the case then it’s a question of lifespan.
democracy is mob rule.
Freedom is rule by law, in a republic, where rights of individuals and society are clearly defined and upheld, and the role of government is defined and limited.
Secondly, the US Constitution was crafted to prevent the erosion of true rights by allowing politicians, ie demagogues, to substitute fiat "rights' in their place.
The breakdown in the scheme is when the Supreme Court becomes so politicized that it is no longer a check on the abuses of the other branches of gov.
Hard and disciplined study is required to determine how to fix this flaw or we are all in a terrible fix.
Correct. The Republic is disappearing. Our directly elected "mob" is now sustained by printed, fiat dollars and massive debt and zero interest rates funneled to them via the government.
Um hum. Too bad that’s not what this guy means, and I wonder if you mean it either.
What he means is that the elites no longer control us, dammit.
BTW, democracy is only “mob rule” if the rights of the people are not protected. The Greeks had a name for democracy that was perfectly good and moral: the polis. And that’s what we are seeing in action.
We are a republic for the moment. People can’t move fast enough to become a Democracy. Even on this forum supposedly cosevative, the howls were that Trump was cheated because he won the popular vote and yet, not some of the state’s delagates. It is interesting that many here jumped on the first populist to come along in a while, because they thought he represented the change that they wanted. The reason that I posted this is to give pause for thought to those who actally want to think. I will never convince anyone with rhetoric, nor would I care to even try. However, this has been a decent conservative forum in the past, and I hope that the morons go back to where they reside. The amount of rancor that has permeated this forum has rendered it no better than the DU. Since this is Jim Robinson’s livelihood, I hope he can get it back under control.
Well said. I am a student of history, and Plato’s comments ring true. My prayer for the people that post on this forum is that they park the emotional tirades and try to re-engage their brains. Otherwise they will never see what is coming.
USA is not a democracy. Long live the Republic!
Well said. That is why the Constitution has set us apart from all others. When the Constitution is thrown away, then we only have ambitious men to forge our future. The Constitution has been under attack for the last several decades. Obama’said usurpation of the constituton will be passed on to Trump.
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