Pastor And Seminary Teacher Who Was Outed As Member of Ashley Madison Commits Suicide..

[[Or, we can look at them as sin. My point was, do you excuse his murder because he has a “mental problem” ?]]

The point wasn’t about whether we ‘excuse the murder’ or not- the piojnt was that he is still saved

[[Do we need not confess and repent our sins because they are “mental problems”?]]

Again- it’s not about confession- the point is, is he still saved or not- The bible states He is- even when committing heinous crimes like murder-

Your claim is that in your extreme scenario, the man is now unsaved because he did this that and the other thing too- This isn’t an issue of ‘excusing’ anything- this is an issue about whether or not Christ’s sacrifice is eternal or not- If man loses his salvation because of X Y Z- then Christ’s sacrifice is only a temporary ‘fix’ which must keep getting applied because it is insufficient to keep us until that day as the bible states it is-

John 6:39, “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.”

That verse alone assures us we can not lose our salvation- otherwise Christ would indeed lose some of those whom God gave Him- making Christ a liar in that verse- and since we KNOW Christ can not lie, we know that whomever calls upon the name of the Lord for salvation shall never again be lost- we are secure in Christ- He tells us so Himself, personally!

IF Jesus fails to do the will of the father, then He sins- and what is the will of the Father? Yup- to make sure that NONE of those who accept Him are lost- So your character in your extreme example IS STILL saved when he dies no matter what he does on this earth- IF he loses his salvation as you suggest, that makes Christ a liar, a failure and a disobedient Son - Your theory’s major flaw is that if a saved man dies ‘unrepentant’ and loses their salvation, then Christ has FAILED to raise up to glory that person whom God had given Him at salvation

IF a person can live all their life not sinning, then sin seconds before death, and lose their salvation- then Christ is obviously not able to keep that person that God Gave Him until ‘that day’ Christ fails IF man can lose his salvation- - IF however Christ is able to keep all them that God gave Him until that day- then God’s word is true, and Christ accomplishes His task, and He obeys His father- there’s just no getting around this fact

I am sorry, but your diatribe here is so full of error that the doctrines involved would take weeks of discipling lessons to set you straight, and it would only profit those who could admit their ignorance and seek true understanding of the Bible. I am just not going to dedicate time to that in the face of your unwillingness to learn, so the only reason I'm writing is for the marginal opportunity of explaining correct Biblical doctrine for those who might be lurking but looking on.

But there is one very important, crystal-clear concept that you ought to take another look at, and this is the transaction that takes place between the human and God, which defines the conditions for salvation. Here's your mocking response to this unchangeable Biblical concept you apparently have been unaware of:

imardmd1: [[We are to trade our sins in exchange for being credited with His righteousness.]]

Bob434: Really? Point out in God’s word where He or ANY apostle of prophet states such heresy?

I have already carefully pointed out in my note to you, that transaction is called "reconciliation" in our English, and by the words katellagay (noun) and katellasso (verb) in the Greek. I gave you the Strong's number, by which you can look up the definition of this kind of interaction in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, or Thayer's Greek/English Lexicon, or in Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (Unabridged), all of which are at my fingertips in both book form and in Bible software on my computer, and which you need to study diligently before you offer your opinions.

2 Cor. 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2 Cor. 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Strong's Number G2644
καταλλάσσω
katallassō
Thayer Definition:
1) to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value
1a) to reconcile (those who are at variance)
1b) return to favour with, be reconciled to one
1c) to receive one into favour
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2596 and G236

My dear FRiend, if this concept is not clear to you, it might mean that you don't really know what salvation is all about. In fact, it is about a changed, a radically altered state of mind and behavior. Your resistance to what I am trying to teach you is itself an indication that your gospel is deeply flawed. You are confusing the doctrine of sanctification with "Lordship salvation," and I really expect to see that you don't even really understand what that approach involves.

Another issue in which your response is erroneous is this one:

Christ was speaking to UNSAVED preachers of ‘religiosity’ - Scholars who based their salvation on their OWN works and OWN knowledge-

No. he was not. He was addressing his disciples before he audience of multitudes in the Semon on The Mount. This only shows that you have not even checked the context, but have based your remark on a false impression of what this text means.

All in all, you probably won't allow a fact-based discussion nor show a willingness to learn, so I guess no real Bible student will be able to help your understanding of Bible doctrines on salvation/sanctification issues.

Don't say that I didn't make a sincere effort to inform you without arguing.

Please note that this discussion arose out of the response of a supposed pastor when he was caught in the act of looking for another sexual partner than his wife. While it is God that judges, we must treat such behavior as coming from someone who professes to be a Christian, yet not behaving as one saved by persistently committing his full trust in Jesus.

Actually, you don't know what God's word has to say about this issue, nor what the Apostles' doctrine is on this issue, nor what reliable commentators have to say about this issue.

There are different ways of using "carnal" in the Bible text, depending on the context, and you refuse to define what you mean by it. Similarly, we use "Christian" in different ways, but you've not been willing to define which kind of "Christian" you mean. But here are the consequences of one who professes to be "Cristian" but refuses to live like one:

Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
. . . . .
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

God and Jesus hate sin. Jesus broke the power of the Sin principle over His disciples by the agony of shedding His Blood and suffering our punishment on the Cross. He knows that they now have the power to refuse to continue old habits. When they don't, they can count on immediate chastening from the Father to rid them of it. If you n notice professing "Christians" who are living disgraceful lives, but are not being chastised, you can pretty much cont that they are not children of God.

Here's the way God's people live:

Ps. 128:1 Blessed is every one that feareth the LORD; that walketh in his ways.

Here's the way that they think:

Job 28:28 And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding

The fear of the LORD is to dread to disappoint or disobey Him. Nobody takes pleasure in disappointing or disobeying the loved one, the one who loves you.

Prov. 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Now, what kind of "carnal Christian" were you talking about? You can't be both carnal and spiritual at the same time, can you?

[[Actually, you don’t know what God’s word has to say about this issue, nor what the Apostles’ doctrine is on this issue, nor what reliable commentators have to say about this issue.]]

Actually I do know hwat ‘reliable’ commentators have to say about it and I also know what the heresy of lordship salvation has to say aobut it to get those passages to fit their heresy-

[[Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.]]

Neither of which prove a man loses his salvation- your point for citing these verses?

[[Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.]]

Again- totally irrelevant to the idea idea of losing salvation OR to the idea that oen must commit to a sinless life before they can ‘be accepted by Christ’ as lordship salvation demands

[[Here’s the way God’s people live:

Ps. 128:1 Blessed is every one that feareth the LORD; that walketh in his ways. ]]

Yep- no quarrels about that- God does bless those hwo CHOOSE to live close to Him- again- you are NOT addressing the issue of losing salvation

[[Now, what kind of “carnal Christian” were you talking about? You can’t be both carnal and spiritual at the same time, can you?]]

Wow- now you’ve completely changed the subject- now you’ve gone from the claim that you can’t be ‘both carnal and Christian’ to “You can’t be both carnal and spiritual” Two totally different issues-

I really don’t care to discuss the issue if you are going to keep moving the goalpost-

My question was simple- Do you believe a CHristian can be carnal or not? No need to avoid the question by CHANGING the issue to something I never asked!

[[I am sorry, but your diatribe here is so full of error that the doctrines involved would take weeks of discipling lessons to set you straight, and it would only profit those who could admit their ignorance and seek true understanding of the Bible.]]

Hmmm- personal attacks now? Swell!

[[I am just not going to dedicate time to that in the face of your unwillingness to learn,]]

What exactly are you trying to ‘teach me’? That God’s word doesn’t really mean what it says in certain passages? Golly- I guess I’m ignant then!

[[and this is the transaction that takes place between the human and God, which defines the conditions for salvation.]]

Yeah, because the ibble is soooo full of ‘conditions necessary for salvation’

[[We are to trade our sins in exchange for being credited with His righteousness]]

Really? Verse please!

[[I have already carefully pointed out in my note to you, that transaction is called “reconciliation” in our English,]]

No you haven’t=- all you’ve ‘pointed out’ is the FACT that when we become saved, we are reconciled THROUGH the act of Christ’s death and nothing more- You’ve proven that it is through Christ that this exchange is made- it’s His effort, NOT ours- You even cited a couple of verses that state that fact- apparently by mistake- because it shows the exchange is made between God and Christ- Christ exchanges our sinful character for a righteous one to present us blameless before our Holy God

[[To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,]]

We don’t reconcile ourselves, Christ reconciles us to God- it is God’s doing- NOT ours- We simply believe that He is the one that does it- that it is He that saves- We don’t save ourselves by becoming righteous enough that He will then accept us- a sinful man CAN NOT reconcile himself to God because a sinful man is the enemy of God- He has NO desire to reconcile himself to God EVEN IF he could reconcile himself to God

The ONLY way a man can become reconciled to God is IF he is sinless (that is exactly what Christ was telling the scribes In the Hebrews passage you cited in earlier post)

You tell me, and the lurkers of this thread- How is it possible for a man in a sinful state to become sinless enough that He is reconciled to God? How can this sinful man renounce all sin BEFORE (or even after) salvation, in order that he may be exchange his sinful nature for righteousness?

The answer is of course, he can NOT- yet your theology demands that he do so- you even cite a word out of context to try to prove your case- and you assign that action to man when it is cleaqr from the other verses you apparently mistakenly cited, show that it is Christ who reconciles/exchanges our sin for righteousness

What you are trying to preach to the lurkers of this thread is that man must work for his salvation, and if he falters, he loses his salvation, and you are trying to preach that the bible doesn’t really mean carnal Christians when it states carnal Christians, and you are trying to preach that king david, lot, Sampson etc ‘don’t count’ because ‘times were different back then’ when the REALITY is that even back then people were saved JUST like they are today- through faith in the coming Christ- NOT through works

[[My dear FRiend, if this concept is not clear to you, it might mean that you don’t really know what salvation is all about.]]

It isn’t I sir that is not understanding- when you become saved, Christ TAKES your sin=- You don’t give your sin- Christ takes it- Christ takes our sin upon Himself- We simply ACCEPT that- we don’t ‘offer Him our sin” We simply believe that He is the Christ who takes our sin upon Himself when we accept Him as Savior

It is Christ ALONE who atoned for our sins and makes possible the reconciliation to God-

[[who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ. The work of reconciliation, or making atonement for sin, is ascribed to the Father; not that he is the author of it, for it is properly Christ’s work; but because he took the first step towards it: he formed the scheme of it; he set forth his Son in his purposes and decrees to be the propitiary sacrifice; he assigned him this work in council and covenant, in promise and in prophecy, and sent him to effect it; therefore he is said to do it “by” him; that is, by his blood and sacrifice, by his sufferings and death, to which, and to which alone, the Scriptures ascribe our peace and reconciliation:]]

A reconciliation is a restoration- and that reconciliation is Christ’s blood which exchanges our unrighteousness for righteousness- it changes our sin to sinlesness- there is Nothing in any of those verses that state that WE must make this exchange-

[[2 Cor. 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ...]]

Sorry, but you have skipped right over this part of the verse- The verse does NOT say ‘Who hath reconciled us to Himself by we the people committing to total surrender to Christ before salvation”- It states BY JESUS CHRIST are we reconciled.

[[2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.]]

Sorry, but it is Christ that is made sin for us? He’s made sin in order that we sinners may be reconciled to a Holy God? Gee- there is nothing io nthis verse, or any verse you cited, that states WE must make ourselves sinless by our own efforts or commitment before salvation in order to be reconciled with God

[[No. he was not. He was addressing his disciples before he audience of multitudes in the Semon on The Mount. This only shows that you have not even checked the context, but have based your remark on a false impression of what this text means.]]

no sir- the passage you used was speaking to the Pharisees and scribes- Christ was telling the scribes that unless their righteousness is much better than the Pharisees, they could not see heaven- for the reason I cited you

[[All in all, you probably won’t allow a fact-based discussion nor show a willingness to learn,]]

Lol- that’s precious coming from someone who IGNOREs every refuting evidence brought up-

[[When they don’t, they can count on immediate chastening from the Father to rid them of it.]]

Hmmm- you’ve moved the goalpost again- you’ve gone from carnal Christians losing their salvation OR never having been saved In the first place IF they sin, to now them just being ‘immediately chastised’ Two totally different issues

[[All in all, you probably won’t allow a fact-based discussion nor show a willingness to learn, so I guess no real Bible student will be able to help your understanding of Bible doctrines on salvation/sanctification issues.]]

Atta boy, keep right on with the petty insults- You throw up verse after verse that has NOTHING to do with what you claim, and you sit there and accuse me of not being willing ‘to learn’? Really?

I’ll ask you again- do you believe there is such a thing as carnal Christians? This question goes right to the heart of the false claim that we can lose our salvation, and it puts the lie to the false claim that if a person lives in sin AFTER they are saved, that they were never saved to begin with

sorry- I misspoke about the Hebrews passage you cited but the point still stands- the issue is about whether or not Christians must work to keep their salvation or not- this passage shows that it is impossible to work ot keep salvation because even the most outwardly ‘righteous’ people (the scribes and Pharisees) were NOT righteous enough to enter the kingdoem of heaven and all their hard work was for nothing!

- what Christ is describing is about the scribes- and he is talking to the unsaved in the crowd explaining to them they can’t work their way to heaven- He tells the unsaved that unless their righteousness exceeds the scribes and Pharisees, they can not be saved- Christ is talking to the unsaved- He is NOT talking to those already saved- He was pointing out that works can NOT save because even the most ‘righteous acting’ unsaved religious folks are NOT saved and can not work their way to heaven- This whole passage refutes your claim that we just make ourselves sinless before we can be saved, and that we must remain sinless afterwards or lose our salvation-

He is telling the unsaved people In the crowd that it is NOT the outward righteousness that saves, it is inward righteousness (IE: Salvation through being reconciled to God through Christ’s shed blood)

The Pharisees and scribes preached a works based ‘salvation’ and they made a big show of looking righteous- and the people around htem thought that these scribes and Pharisees were saved because they outwardly and very publicly ‘acted righteous’- Jesus was telling these deceived people In the crowd that it is NOT acting saved that saves a person, it is accepting Him

Jesus had just got done telling the people HE came to fulfill the law FOTR THEM, and made His point by pointing out that even the most ardent law keepers will NOT see heaven because they are still unrighteous- Jesus had just made it very clear to the crowd that unless EVERY single letter of the law was obeyed to it’s fullest, that a person could NOT enter into heaven- (context is your friend). He let the crowd know that HE had fulfilled every single letter of the law- and that their salvation was through Him, and NOT through works as the Pharisees and scribes were teaching them previously.

It is Christ who fulfills the law- we do NOT fulfill the law as you suggest- and as lordship salvation suggests- It is unbiblical to even suggest that WE must fulfill the law to the last letter before we can enter heaven - and this is precisely why I keep asking where your cutoff point is for losing salvation- because if you even so much as violate one iota of the law- you will NOT enter heaven if you believe that works are your salvation as lordship salvation preaches-

If you are for one minute suggesting that this passage in hebews is telling people who are saved that they must work to maintain their salvation, that THEY must make themselves ‘more righteous than the Pharisees and scribes’, in order to be saved or reach heaven, that they must make a total commitment to Christ before Christ will accept them- then it is NOT I who doesn’t understand Scriptures- Christ just got done telling the people that they can NOT be good enough to enter heaven- and you are suggesting that we have to be ‘good enough’ by ‘making a total commitment to Christ’ before He will accept us? Your whole theology flies In the face of the sermon on the mount

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