[[I am sorry, but your diatribe here is so full of error that the doctrines involved would take weeks of discipling lessons to set you straight, and it would only profit those who could admit their ignorance and seek true understanding of the Bible.]]
Hmmm- personal attacks now? Swell!
[[I am just not going to dedicate time to that in the face of your unwillingness to learn,]]
What exactly are you trying to ‘teach me’? That God’s word doesn’t really mean what it says in certain passages? Golly- I guess I’m ignant then!
[[and this is the transaction that takes place between the human and God, which defines the conditions for salvation.]]
Yeah, because the ibble is soooo full of ‘conditions necessary for salvation’
[[We are to trade our sins in exchange for being credited with His righteousness]]
Really? Verse please!
[[I have already carefully pointed out in my note to you, that transaction is called “reconciliation” in our English,]]
No you haven’t=- all you’ve ‘pointed out’ is the FACT that when we become saved, we are reconciled THROUGH the act of Christ’s death and nothing more- You’ve proven that it is through Christ that this exchange is made- it’s His effort, NOT ours- You even cited a couple of verses that state that fact- apparently by mistake- because it shows the exchange is made between God and Christ- Christ exchanges our sinful character for a righteous one to present us blameless before our Holy God
[[To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,]]
We don’t reconcile ourselves, Christ reconciles us to God- it is God’s doing- NOT ours- We simply believe that He is the one that does it- that it is He that saves- We don’t save ourselves by becoming righteous enough that He will then accept us- a sinful man CAN NOT reconcile himself to God because a sinful man is the enemy of God- He has NO desire to reconcile himself to God EVEN IF he could reconcile himself to God
The ONLY way a man can become reconciled to God is IF he is sinless (that is exactly what Christ was telling the scribes In the Hebrews passage you cited in earlier post)
You tell me, and the lurkers of this thread- How is it possible for a man in a sinful state to become sinless enough that He is reconciled to God? How can this sinful man renounce all sin BEFORE (or even after) salvation, in order that he may be exchange his sinful nature for righteousness?
The answer is of course, he can NOT- yet your theology demands that he do so- you even cite a word out of context to try to prove your case- and you assign that action to man when it is cleaqr from the other verses you apparently mistakenly cited, show that it is Christ who reconciles/exchanges our sin for righteousness
What you are trying to preach to the lurkers of this thread is that man must work for his salvation, and if he falters, he loses his salvation, and you are trying to preach that the bible doesn’t really mean carnal Christians when it states carnal Christians, and you are trying to preach that king david, lot, Sampson etc ‘don’t count’ because ‘times were different back then’ when the REALITY is that even back then people were saved JUST like they are today- through faith in the coming Christ- NOT through works
[[My dear FRiend, if this concept is not clear to you, it might mean that you don’t really know what salvation is all about.]]
It isn’t I sir that is not understanding- when you become saved, Christ TAKES your sin=- You don’t give your sin- Christ takes it- Christ takes our sin upon Himself- We simply ACCEPT that- we don’t ‘offer Him our sin” We simply believe that He is the Christ who takes our sin upon Himself when we accept Him as Savior
It is Christ ALONE who atoned for our sins and makes possible the reconciliation to God-
[[who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ. The work of reconciliation, or making atonement for sin, is ascribed to the Father; not that he is the author of it, for it is properly Christ’s work; but because he took the first step towards it: he formed the scheme of it; he set forth his Son in his purposes and decrees to be the propitiary sacrifice; he assigned him this work in council and covenant, in promise and in prophecy, and sent him to effect it; therefore he is said to do it “by” him; that is, by his blood and sacrifice, by his sufferings and death, to which, and to which alone, the Scriptures ascribe our peace and reconciliation:]]
A reconciliation is a restoration- and that reconciliation is Christ’s blood which exchanges our unrighteousness for righteousness- it changes our sin to sinlesness- there is Nothing in any of those verses that state that WE must make this exchange-
[[2 Cor. 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ...]]
Sorry, but you have skipped right over this part of the verse- The verse does NOT say ‘Who hath reconciled us to Himself by we the people committing to total surrender to Christ before salvation”- It states BY JESUS CHRIST are we reconciled.
[[2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.]]
Sorry, but it is Christ that is made sin for us? He’s made sin in order that we sinners may be reconciled to a Holy God? Gee- there is nothing io nthis verse, or any verse you cited, that states WE must make ourselves sinless by our own efforts or commitment before salvation in order to be reconciled with God
[[No. he was not. He was addressing his disciples before he audience of multitudes in the Semon on The Mount. This only shows that you have not even checked the context, but have based your remark on a false impression of what this text means.]]
no sir- the passage you used was speaking to the Pharisees and scribes- Christ was telling the scribes that unless their righteousness is much better than the Pharisees, they could not see heaven- for the reason I cited you
[[All in all, you probably won’t allow a fact-based discussion nor show a willingness to learn,]]
Lol- that’s precious coming from someone who IGNOREs every refuting evidence brought up-
[[When they don’t, they can count on immediate chastening from the Father to rid them of it.]]
Hmmm- you’ve moved the goalpost again- you’ve gone from carnal Christians losing their salvation OR never having been saved In the first place IF they sin, to now them just being ‘immediately chastised’ Two totally different issues
[[All in all, you probably won’t allow a fact-based discussion nor show a willingness to learn, so I guess no real Bible student will be able to help your understanding of Bible doctrines on salvation/sanctification issues.]]
Atta boy, keep right on with the petty insults- You throw up verse after verse that has NOTHING to do with what you claim, and you sit there and accuse me of not being willing ‘to learn’? Really?
I’ll ask you again- do you believe there is such a thing as carnal Christians? This question goes right to the heart of the false claim that we can lose our salvation, and it puts the lie to the false claim that if a person lives in sin AFTER they are saved, that they were never saved to begin with
sorry- I misspoke about the Hebrews passage you cited but the point still stands- the issue is about whether or not Christians must work to keep their salvation or not- this passage shows that it is impossible to work ot keep salvation because even the most outwardly ‘righteous’ people (the scribes and Pharisees) were NOT righteous enough to enter the kingdoem of heaven and all their hard work was for nothing!
- what Christ is describing is about the scribes- and he is talking to the unsaved in the crowd explaining to them they can’t work their way to heaven- He tells the unsaved that unless their righteousness exceeds the scribes and Pharisees, they can not be saved- Christ is talking to the unsaved- He is NOT talking to those already saved- He was pointing out that works can NOT save because even the most ‘righteous acting’ unsaved religious folks are NOT saved and can not work their way to heaven- This whole passage refutes your claim that we just make ourselves sinless before we can be saved, and that we must remain sinless afterwards or lose our salvation-
He is telling the unsaved people In the crowd that it is NOT the outward righteousness that saves, it is inward righteousness (IE: Salvation through being reconciled to God through Christ’s shed blood)
The Pharisees and scribes preached a works based ‘salvation’ and they made a big show of looking righteous- and the people around htem thought that these scribes and Pharisees were saved because they outwardly and very publicly ‘acted righteous’- Jesus was telling these deceived people In the crowd that it is NOT acting saved that saves a person, it is accepting Him
Jesus had just got done telling the people HE came to fulfill the law FOTR THEM, and made His point by pointing out that even the most ardent law keepers will NOT see heaven because they are still unrighteous- Jesus had just made it very clear to the crowd that unless EVERY single letter of the law was obeyed to it’s fullest, that a person could NOT enter into heaven- (context is your friend). He let the crowd know that HE had fulfilled every single letter of the law- and that their salvation was through Him, and NOT through works as the Pharisees and scribes were teaching them previously.
It is Christ who fulfills the law- we do NOT fulfill the law as you suggest- and as lordship salvation suggests- It is unbiblical to even suggest that WE must fulfill the law to the last letter before we can enter heaven - and this is precisely why I keep asking where your cutoff point is for losing salvation- because if you even so much as violate one iota of the law- you will NOT enter heaven if you believe that works are your salvation as lordship salvation preaches-
If you are for one minute suggesting that this passage in hebews is telling people who are saved that they must work to maintain their salvation, that THEY must make themselves ‘more righteous than the Pharisees and scribes’, in order to be saved or reach heaven, that they must make a total commitment to Christ before Christ will accept them- then it is NOT I who doesn’t understand Scriptures- Christ just got done telling the people that they can NOT be good enough to enter heaven- and you are suggesting that we have to be ‘good enough’ by ‘making a total commitment to Christ’ before He will accept us? Your whole theology flies In the face of the sermon on the mount