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Trump is Right about Songbird McCain and here’s why
ForwardProgressives.com powderedwigsociety.com freedomoutpost.com ^ | July 21, 2015 | Ed Wood

Posted on 07/22/2015 7:11:35 PM PDT by NKP_Vet

I do realize that everyone from Charles Krauthammer to the recently escaped Mexican drug lord, El Chapo, is piling onto Donald Trump for his straight-forward remarks. Well, being the contrarian that I am, I am going to come down on the side of Mr. Trump!

Do I like him? No. Never have. I don't like his swagger, his cockiness, his arrogance. And I certainly don't care for that mop of comb-over fake hair. But they say the difference between egotism and self-assurance is the ability to produce. By any measure, he certainly wins that contest, both at home and abroad. True, he was born with a silver spoon, but he, and he alone, turned it into gold!

The first thing he did after declaring his presidential candidacy was to observe that Mexico was not sending their "best and brightest" across our southern border. Instead, in Mr. Trump's opinion, they are sending their gang members, their druggies, their serial felons and killers. Certainly, the tragic instance in San Francisco, and others elsewhere, have borne out the truth of his statement.

But the Honorable Senator John McCain (R-AZ) picked a fight by calling him, and others like him, "crazies" for criticizing Mexican immigration. I guess when you are worth $10 BILLION of your own making, you feel free to take issue when a politician calls you crazy!

So The Donald retaliated with the statement that getting yourself captured doesn't necessarily make you a hero. "He's a war hero because he was captured? I like people who weren't captured." With that, all hell broke loose in the mainstream media, as well as the Karl Rove dominated Republican establishment -- and the gaggle of GOP presidential wannabes.

But it might behoove us at this point in time to wonder just why would getting captured make you a hero? And why would remaining in captivity make you a military expert, and thus qualified to currently fill the roles of chairman of both the Senate Committee on Armed Services and Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs. And one might ask, how has his leadership in both these strategic positions of responsibility been working out for ya'?

Since Mr. Trump expressed his opinion, there is now a whole group of Vietnam veterans who have come forward with statements that highly question the Senator's preferential treatment as the son and grandson of Navy admirals, and his loyalty to his country while in captivity. Some even place him in the Jane Fonda category. Among the allegations are:

John McCain was a below average student, getting into the Naval Academy due to his father's and grandfather's influence and naval careers. Both were admirals. McCain was a boozing, smoking, womanizing party animal, graduating fifth from the bottom of his class at Annapolis.

John McCain's arms were broken not from being tortured by the North Vietnamese, as he has claimed, but when he improperly ejected from his plane over North Vietnam. According to his fellow prisoners, he was never tortured by the North Vietnamese.

John McCain's nickname among his North Vietnamese captors was "Songbird," as he was eager to tell them anything they wanted to hear to avoid torture. It is claimed that he made 32 propaganda videos for the North Vietnamese in which he blamed the United States for targeting schools, temples, orphanages, and hospitals. McCain has admitted to making one propaganda video.

And from a US Navy Aviator who served with McCain: "His "shoot down" was self-induced, as he DISOBEYED ORDERS and flew well below the 'floor,' getting himself shot down. There were several other jets on that particular mission and he was the only one shot down, because the others obeyed their orders."

But if you think these opinions of Senator McCain are somewhat negative, try this one by Theodore Shoebat, Communications Director for Rescue Christians, an organization that is on the ground in Muslim lands, rescuing Christians from persecution, and the author of two books, For God or For Tyranny and In Satan's Footsteps: The Source and Interconnections of all Evil.

"John McCain is a giant bag of scum; his mouth is a continual sewer of bile, his heart is a decayed rot of dung, his mind a river of filth, and his soul is amongst the damned. He is nothing but a murderous scumbag. His evils are so great, that the words of Trump don't even bother me. McCain is a demon incarnate. His service in Vietnam does nothing to justify the evils he has supported and pushed for."

The late Daniel Patrick Moynihan said it well: "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Mr. Trump expressed his opinion, twice, apparently based upon ample facts.

Was it the politically smart thing for him to do? Perhaps not, but isn't it refreshing, for once, to see a candidate for political office speaking his mind, instead of having his thoughts evaluated by a panel of political analysts before expressing them?

At least Trump is now branded as a no-holds-barred fighter, a type of leadership our country desperately needs at this time -- and could certainly have used in the recent Iranian nuclear negotiations. Can you imagine the outcome had he been there instead of "Swiftboat" Kerry?

The GOP needs for someone to break away from the pack of wilting violets currently running for the 2016 candidacy, and Trump may have just done it! As I write this, the liberally reluctant Washington Post poll shows Trump leading by 24%, followed by Walker at 13, Bush at 12, Huckabee at 8, Rubio at 7, etc., etc.

Fasten your seat belts folks, we ain't seen nothing yet!


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Editorial; Extended News; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: District of Columbia; US: Florida; US: New Hampshire; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: donaldtrump; mccain; songbird; trump; vascandal; vets
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To: cva66snipe

Tell that to the families of the men missing in action that John berated, insulted, lied to, and caused to break down in Senate hearings.

A number of other people on that Senate panel were amazed by McCain’s actions. They found them hard to fathom.

John suffered two broken arms from ejecting improperly.

I don’t know how accurate the description on his citation is.

I do know that many of the MIA’s stories were never resolved.

We can’t read their full story.

I have a hard time imagining any of them fighting to keep John McCain’s information secret.


61 posted on 07/23/2015 1:13:24 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (Conservatism: Now home to liars too. And we'll support them. Yea... GOPe)
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To: DoughtyOne

Fascinating information from all you guys. I truly appreciate it and love to hear your stories. However,I must admit to being somewhat confused, as there appears even among you all to be diametrically opposing viewpoints regarding McCain and his service and what really happened. Are there any reputable books written about McCain’s service years and did he really have some or more of his war records classified so no one can see them? If so, was any explanation ever given as to why?


62 posted on 07/23/2015 1:16:00 AM PDT by flaglady47 (TRUMP ROCKS!)
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To: cva66snipe

BTW:

Thanks for the post. It was obviously reasoned to post it.

I don’t think TEA Party members are terrorists.

I don’t think Trump supporters are crazies.

John’s view on Conservatives are fairly well known.

John doesn’t have much of a problem trashing me.


63 posted on 07/23/2015 1:18:04 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (Conservatism: Now home to liars too. And we'll support them. Yea... GOPe)
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To: jonrick46

Thanks for posting the links. I am bookmarking this and will read them tomorrow. Thanks again


64 posted on 07/23/2015 1:19:32 AM PDT by flaglady47 (TRUMP ROCKS!)
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To: DoughtyOne
Damnit man did it ever cross you mind to think his crash and POW time involved head trauma? Head Trauma can effect behavior then or show up later on years later even decades later. Could you have endured the Hanoi Hilton and the beatings? Well Hell could you? Could any of you getting your keyboard jollies bashing the mans military record rather than his disgusting political one have withstood the living hell he did? If not then shut the hell up.

Loathing the man politically and his after he got back deeds is one thing. Destroying a mans military record for political jollies is another and most of the post are debunked impossible same B.S. that gets repeated every blasted night!!!

65 posted on 07/23/2015 1:21:34 AM PDT by cva66snipe ((Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?))
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To: flaglady47

I haven’t read the whole thread, so I’m not sure what you’re referencing.

My emphasis was that the government had information on around 475 MIAs from Vietnam. McCain was asked for that information, so the families could do their own work to find loved ones.

He promised once the hearings were over, the info would be released. It never was.

I’m not sure why everything was classified, but I did watch the video of another hearing committee member from back then explain that it was his and others’ understanding that there would be a big information dump.

He was amazed at how locked down the information was. He wasn’t in favor of it.

As for any classification of McCain related documents, I’m not aware of anything related to that, and if my wording was imprecise enough to make you think I did, I apologize.

I’ve had to piece together was I know. Some of the things said about McCain, I’m not comfortable with. He’s rather a stupid big-mouth though, and he’s done interviews and made comments that put some of his actions on the record.

In his book, he admits to being a bully on his grade school play-ground. He just liked to beat up the other kids.

This is a guy that was a vile character into his early childhood.

It hasn’t gotten any better.


66 posted on 07/23/2015 1:26:56 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (Conservatism: Now home to liars too. And we'll support them. Yea... GOPe)
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To: DoughtyOne

“In his book, he admits to being a bully on his grade school play-ground. He just liked to beat up the other kids.

This is a guy that was a vile character into his early childhood.”

This ought to get rather interesting then, as Trump is no shrinking violet either, being rather pugnacious. It will be the battle of the titans, lol.

It hasn’t gotten any better.


67 posted on 07/23/2015 1:37:37 AM PDT by flaglady47 (TRUMP ROCKS!)
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To: cva66snipe; DoughtyOne

There were hundreds of pilots that performed similarly.

McCain did nothing here that was extraordinary.

If every pilot or soldier or marine who went into battle against the enemy and emerged alive with mission accomplished were to be awarded a distinguished medal, then the medal would have little value other than to reflect that a person did his duty.

His citation lists no concrete actions of heroism above and beyond the call of duty. He flew a mission, dropped bombs and was shot down. And for that he receives a Distinguished Flying Cross. And he kept this citation sealed until very recently because he knew it would draw attention to his being given privileged treatment in the handing out of awards.

There were hundreds of thousands that served in Vietnam and they were brave and accomplished their missions, did their duty, without any one putting them for such a high award. And they never complained.

McCain was no ace pilot, he saved no lives, he performed no acts that were crucial to winning a military battle.

There are many brave service members that performed much more that McCain and they received mere service ribbons. But McCain receives high medals for what? For doing his duty?


68 posted on 07/23/2015 1:40:44 AM PDT by Hostage (ARTICLE V)
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To: flaglady47

Did he kill any kittens?


69 posted on 07/23/2015 1:42:13 AM PDT by Daffynition ("We Are Not Descended From Fearful Men")
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To: Hostage
Not all citations are public info. I've looked up info on one I know there's little information of the exacts there also. The public citation will usually not list the contents of the paperwork that lead to an award. BTW YOU don't know if he saved lives or not. No one knows. A pilot flying into an airstrike doesn't know the full collateral damage on the ground. A pilot giving air coverage to men pinned down and bombs where the fire originates also saves lives.

This is a childish Witch Hunt. At the most all it is accomplishing is dragging out memories for all other NAM POWS and having them relive their experiences if they were able to forget to start with. In that respect Trump should not have went there.

I know a POW who supported McCain in 2008 but I will not release any name to the Kooks looking to score a political hit and bugging the man. I don't like McCain politically or personally. I did not and would not ever vote for him. But that endorsement I saw by one of his fellow POWS tells me the Hanoi Hilton Internet generated Rumormill about his actions as a POW found on Kook Tin Foil Conspiracy Sites is very likely BS.

70 posted on 07/23/2015 1:53:55 AM PDT by cva66snipe ((Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?))
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To: cva66snipe
Damnit man did it ever cross you mind to think his crash and POW time involved head trauma? Head Trauma can effect behavior then or show up later on years later even decades later. Could you have endured the Hanoi Hilton and the beatings? Well Hell could you? Could any of you getting your keyboard jollies bashing the mans military record rather than his disgusting political one have withstood the living hell he did? If not then shut the hell up.

Loathing the man politically and his after he got back deeds is one thing. Destroying a mans military record for political jollies is another and most of the post are debunked impossible same B.S. that gets repeated every blasted night!!!


First of all, I appreciate you saying what you felt compelled to say here.  I have no problem with someone sticking up for John.  I can't stand by and watch the man screw others into the dirt any longer, without addressing his life.

From John's earliest years to this very day, he was a total screw off.  Worse than that, he an angry unhappy vicious bastard.  And as much as I am not a fan of Sarah Palin, his actions with her were despicable.

We don't know everything about his 5.5 years in the Hanoi Hilton and that system.  I'm not comfortable talking about that portion of his life.  The Vietnam POWs in the Hanoi Hilton system are men I have the upmost respect for generally.  Stockdale is an amazing man.  All the others, I apprecaite very much what they had to go through.  I have even felt compelled to remain silent on John's POW years.  That hasn't stopped me from noticing some things that are irrefutable.

I watched him take more money than anyone else from Keating, in excess of $100,000 in donations.  I watched him take thousands of dollars of percs from Keating, and not report them as required by law.  I watched as he repaid those funds seven years later when he got caught.  And when Alan Cranston was jetisoned from the U. S. Senate for far less than what McCain did, I noticed.  When John fought with Ronald Reagan over policy, I noticed. When John ganged up with Democrats to thwart reasoned policy, I noticed.  When he did his best to wound the Bush administration cancelling out any momentum on reasoned policy over and over again on the Sunday morning talk shows, I noticed.  When John met with terrorist organizations in Libya and Syria, and urged Obama to arm and fund them, I noticed.

When John ran for president, I kept my mouth shut regarding his POW years.  I knew some things.  I remained silent anyway.

I have no idea how I would have dealt with being in the Hanoi Hilton. What I am certain of, is that if I spent that time with men and understood what they had to deal with as POWs or MIAs, it would not be possible for me to treat veterans and the failies of MIAs in Vietnam, the way John did.  It would not be possible for me to work to keep information classified that was desperately sought by loving families.

What I do know, is that there is only so much horse stuff I'm willing to take from John McCain.  I will never remain silent about any aspect of his life again.  He's now shooting his mouth off about one of the best chances we have to get some action on some major problems with our nation, and I'm not going to stand by and watch him destroy that chance.

Ronald Reagan loathed him.  People on Reagan's staff loathed him.  They are the ones who took personal action to help his wife who stood by him during the war, only to be dumped for Cindy.

John isn't the only human being in this world with feelings.  He's not the only one that can dish either.

When he sits down and shuts up, I'll be more than happy to let it rest.  If he's going to work full tilt against my nation and our interests, I'm going to work full tilt against him.
71 posted on 07/23/2015 1:56:27 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (Conservatism: Now home to liars too. And we'll support them. Yea... GOPe)
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To: Hostage

I tend to agree with your thoughts here.

John Kerry comes to mind. Some medal winners aren’t equal to the rest. I think that’s rather clear.


72 posted on 07/23/2015 1:59:09 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (Conservatism: Now home to liars too. And we'll support them. Yea... GOPe)
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To: DoughtyOne; flaglady47

> “’m not sure why everything was classified, “

C’mon now. You can be fairly sure it was classified to cover up the truth about things involving McCain and others that they did not want to see the light of day. There is absolutely no technological or security risk in releasing the records from 50 years ago unless there were war crime material that would implicate the US Government or persons that are still alive today. And even then they could be redacted to avoid legal liability.

McCain was in the party that went to Hanoi to gather records the Vietnamese had on POWs including himself. He knows what the records say. He had to have had to turn them over to Pentagon bureaucrats and an order was obtained to have them sealed. Senator Bob Smith said the Pentagon bureaucrats could be prosecuted for their handling of POW and MIA matters and it lends plausibility as to why the records are classified.

A recent witness said the declassification of those records has now been delayed indefinitely, in other words forever. That can be reversed but it will take a President that is willing to get to the bottom of it.


73 posted on 07/23/2015 2:00:10 AM PDT by Hostage (ARTICLE V)
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To: Hostage; flaglady47

Hostage, I haven’t studied the reasons for the classifications. What you say does make sense, but I haven’t seen other reasoned objections, so I don’t want to state it was McCain related.

It may be. I don’t have an axe to grind on it either way.

Bob Smith is the guy that I have seen marvel at the classifications. He was the one that said he expected to seen everything dumped, and then was shocked how little was.

He also said he knew the government had more information than it forked over.

McCain has been sitting and chairing important committees for decades. He has been an evil influence in Washington, D. C.


74 posted on 07/23/2015 2:07:02 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (Conservatism: Now home to liars too. And we'll support them. Yea... GOPe)
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To: DoughtyOne

One thing is for sure, John McCain gets no more free passes when he attacks Trump and tens of thousands of fine Americans. As Mark Steyn wrote:

“Forty years ago, John McCain was a war hero. Since then he’s mostly been an asshole. The problem is you can’t out-asshole Donald Trump. McCain is in the Superbowl of assholery and hopelessly outmatched. He was doing assholery-as-usual last week, sneering at Trump’s supporters as “the crazies”.”

http://www.steynonline.com/7059/the-superbowl-of-superholes

You should read all of it because it references some really low class antics of McCain that are consistent with your sentiments and observations.

While Donald is no Ronald Reagan he may be what the country needs in terms of connection and tuning. Behind his veneer of bragging, arrogance, and New York City brashness is a man who I believe is afraid now for his country, who now believes “it’s time to get tough” in a way that New Yorkers can intonate with credibility. It’s not my cup of tea but events of today are not calling for tea and crackers, maybe more like strong whiskey drunk straight up. That would be Trump. I’m not sure a statesman is what we need; need someone more like a Harding.

I am not completely sold on Trump but this speech he gave in South Carolina moved me closer to the realization that he could be it although personally Cruz is who I identify with spiritually and intellectually:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj9xsrhJKOQ

He’s not eloquent, he’s rough but there’s a heart in him behind a facade of toughness. He’s a no nonsense guy who doesn’t need to kiss anybody’s behind or kiss any rings or bow before any Saudi Prince. He appears simply as an SOB American who will get a deal done and come out ahead. Importantly he seems trustworthy and self-correcting without ever apologizing. Maybe that’s what is needed now in America and a lot of people seem to think so.

And just two weeks I was thinking no way, not a chance. And yet he keeps belting them out of the park.


75 posted on 07/23/2015 2:34:25 AM PDT by Hostage (ARTICLE V)
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To: Crystal Palace East
There is only one on-the-record comment about McCain from anyone who would know, and that is from Vice Admiral Stockdale. Stockdale would know. He was SOP and McCain’s cellmate in the Hanoi Hilton.

He said all the McCain stories about “songbird” are BS, and McCain served honorably. So much of the other is what communist reporters say he said. Who do you trust, a MOH-winning American or communist reporters?

The Spartan ethos would say, “Come back with your shield - or on it.”

But if you’re going to hold someone else to that standard, you had better have a Spartan hero’s record yourself. I don’t - and Donald Trump doesn’t, either.

OTOH, tho the Bible says to defer to those who have suffered for the faith, it has not proved possible to live with that as an absolute - there have been instances of people with such credentials actually (gasp!) being wrong about important matters. Or so my pastor once informed me.

In that context, the deference John McCain earned passed its Sell By date long ago.

Long before he was accorded the Republican nomination for POTUS, in fact.


76 posted on 07/23/2015 4:07:24 AM PDT by conservatism_IS_compassion ('Liberalism' is a conspiracy against the public by wire-service journalism.)
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To: Hostage

Sorry, but all the obfuscation does not hide the real truth.

There are a whole S-load of accusations that McCain was guilty of all sorts of misconduct as a prisoner.

There is not one iota of proof of any of it. In fact, two MOH winners who were there said it is not true.

Bottom line, McCain may be a political ass, but trying to run down his record as a POW is simply making false accusations about something we know to not be true.

Aren’t we better than that?

Go after his political record all day long, and I’ll join you, but simply repeating known lies is beneath us.


77 posted on 07/23/2015 4:40:15 AM PDT by Crystal Palace East ("We Must All Hang Together, or Assuredly We Will All Hang Separately" B. Franklin)
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To: Balding_Eagle

I loved this article ... especially the inside baseball about Juan McCain ... confirming that he’s been a scumbag for the last fifty (50) years ...


78 posted on 07/23/2015 5:15:14 AM PDT by Patton@Bastogne
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To: ROCKLOBSTER

The hair is real, there’s video of someone (at Fox?) running her hand though it.


79 posted on 07/23/2015 6:17:43 AM PDT by Balding_Eagle (The Great Wall of Trump ---- 100% sealing of the border. Coming soon.)
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To: Crystal Palace East

The epitome of resisting...........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I1hft2lNzs

Citation
While on a flight over North Vietnam, Capt. Sijan ejected from his disabled aircraft and successfully evaded capture for more than 6 weeks. During this time, he was seriously injured and suffered from shock and extreme weight loss due to lack of food. After being captured by North Vietnamese soldiers, Capt. Sijan was taken to a holding point for subsequent transfer to a prisoner of war camp. In his emaciated and crippled condition, he overpowered 1 of his guards and crawled into the jungle, only to be recaptured after several hours. He was then transferred to another prison camp where he was kept in solitary confinement and interrogated at length. During interrogation, he was severely tortured; however, he did not divulge any information to his captors. Capt. Sijan lapsed into delirium and was placed in the care of another prisoner. During his intermittent periods of consciousness until his death, he never complained of his physical condition and, on several occasions, spoke of future escape attempts. Capt. Sijan’s extraordinary heroism and intrepidity above and beyond the call of duty at the cost of his life are in keeping with the highest traditions of the U.S. Air Force and reflect great credit upon himself and the U.S. Armed Forces.

http://www.vietnamwar50th.com/family_keeps_legacy_of_medal_of_honor_recipient_lance_sijan/

If one wants to see an example of “duty, honor, country” or an example of self-sacrifice in fulfillment of mission, this book is the place to find it.

http://www.amazon.com/Into-Mouth-Cat-Story-Vietnam/dp/0393325482


80 posted on 07/23/2015 6:53:05 AM PDT by NKP_Vet
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