Trump is Right about Songbird McCain and here’s why

I served on the USS Forrestal from 1977 to 1980. While in boot camp we went through damage control training on a regular basis.

We were shown 3 movies in those days for damage control.

Forrestal fire

Oriskany fire

Enterpise fire

Each one was blamed on something unproven to this date Forrestal disaster was blamed at time on a guy checking voltage on cabling going to the rockets, and that his analog meter had dead batteries

Never heard of McCain at any time or I just don't remember

I had no idea I was headed for the FID at that time

Bud Day and Jeremiah Denton made 06 in captivity. So did Colonel Ted Guy. Even as POW you have to be recommended by the SRO. Colonel Ted Guy was McCain’s SRO. He wanted to bring McCain and few others up on charges upon their release. I don’t think promotion for McCain was in the cards as a POW. McCain went 6 and half years between promotion to 04 and 05. No promotions in captivity.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Navy_biographical_data_released_for_John_McCain

You just explained why criticizing McCain calls into question the good character of the other POWs, but it didn’t seem to bother you going the other directly by inferring a lot of our troops have as spotty a character as McCain.

Here is my post : Some have a daredevil mentality, a rebel mentality, etc that their superiors see and then harness & redirect their focus of those skills for a military purpose. Thus those type warriors make pathetic politicians and often lousy in their home life.

Well, pretty close.

Many warriors personal behaviors are not what most persons call acceptable. Some have a daredevil mentality, a rebel mentality, etc that their superiors see and then harness & redirect their focus of those skills for a military purpose. Thus those type warriors make pathetic politicians and often lousy in their home life.

In our discussion I am trying to address this topic academically. I'm not upset you are defending your postion. I'm trying to reveal my point of view and how yours looks to me. Other will obviously agree with you and I acknowledge that, so to be clear, I'm not saying your way off base. I'm simply stating that I don't see it exactly like you. We do have common ground too.

I saw that in three of my uncles all WW2 Combat Vets. One was Army shot in France several times. He made Sergeant and lost it so many times he didn't even bother sewing the rank on anymore. His disobeyed orders in the best interest of those under him but more important the success of the assigned mission. Thus one mission he lost his stripes the next one got them back. The kindest, most gentle laid back man you'd want to meet and a good family man. Another uncle was USMC fought on the islands of Japan in WW2. Came home a less than desirable person a drinker, womanizer, often unemployed because of his own actions, and often abusive. But he was also a fighter in combat. He changed his last years of life finally. The last one was a career Navy WW2 enlisted man who worked his way up to Commander and a ship Command by the late 1960's. A good officer by accounts I've read even played a key part of the Gemini program recovery team. But he could not handle his home life. His son paid a huge price for that because he tried to run the house like a military officer rather than a husband or father. All of them made their positive contributions during the wars.

My understanding is that there are people like that in the military. It does bother me that here we are focused on salvaging John McCain's rep so much, that we are willing to "be frank" about other men. If you'll forgive me for reminding you, this was the Clinton Defence in large part in the 1990s. Anyone critisizing his antics were the real problem, not him. And so here I sit, calling McCain on his actions and realizing to some people, I am the problem. Like Clinton, John is supposed get a pass. I'm asked not to be honest about John, because that would reflect poorly on the other POWs. I am somehow assured that denegrating "Many (I assume >> of our) warriors as not what most persons would call acceptable", is acceptable for this discussion's sake. I'm having a hard time with that. We're not discussion those other warriors. We are discussing John McCain. And once again, I don't think .

But it seems Nam changed the rules in society on how we look upon and treat those who served the nation in war time. The attacking of service members became a blood sport which has carried on even into the wars we are in today. John Murtha was such a scumbag in his political career persecuting troops in combat.

For many is our socity, I think you're right on target. Who have I talked about? I have addressed two men. John Kerry and John McCain are the two people. I don't make blanket comments about our troops. I respct their service. I do not rail on our men who served in Vietnam. I've never bought into the idea they were something less than heroes. I think they had a very tough job. If they're trying to game others in their after war experience, trying to be president on a rep I'm not confident in, I may say something. I didn't with John until now, as it relates to his POW experience. Look at what I accepted from John McCain for decades, before I finally had had enough a few days ago and addressed his problems since he's so quick to trash everyone else.

Did your brothers take over $100 dollars from Keating? Did they get between $7 and $13k of perks from him, and fail to report it? Did they get a pass, when it was discovered 7 years after the fact? Were they allowed to simply repay the funds while someone else got booted from office, barely avoiding prison? Did they sit on a committee on Capital hill and insult veterans and the families of MIAs in Vietnam? Did they push the classification of docments to the family members of MIAs couldn't help their loved ones? Did they fight Reagan? Did they team up with the worst of the worst on Capital Hill to oppose good policy? Did they help Democrats get bad judges appointed? Did they team up with Ted Kennedy to ram immigration reform through? Have they called Tea Party members terrorists? Have they called Conservatives crazies? Did they facilitate the provision of weapons and funds to known terrorist groups?

Have they sided with Obama against the nation in a number of instances?

How may of those "Many Warriors" you talked about did this sort of thing? You made the case of them serving the nation honorably, even if they weren't alway upstanding outside the service. I'd wager they weren't doing the types of things John was, against the nation. If they were, they weren't generally doing it from capital hill, or with foreign powers, some known terrorist entities. John was. Lumping him in with others is just wrong. (IMO)

Let me ask you a question. Is Trumps life and character really any better morally than McCains? How has he made his money? What is on the bottom floor of those Hotels? The Trump comment fiasco has also diverted attention away from a lot of more important issues. McCain isn't running for POTUS. He'll be lucky to see another senate term and before Trumps comments may well have been on his way out in the primaries but then again Trump in his shooting off his mouth may have put him back in office. Politically I have never trusted McCain & in 2008 my vote went to Chuck Baldwin for POTUS. I do not trust Trump either for the same reasons I don't trust McCain. Politically he has been all over the place in the past couple of elections. It makes me wonder what he is really up to and possibly for whom is he doing this?

Well he wasn't doing it on behalf of the Muslim Brotherhood or al Qaeda. Wish we could same the same thing for John.

Trump didn't give veterans and the families of MIAs any grief on Capital Hill.

He didn't advocate for closing GITMO.

There's not even a chance his advocacy helped launch ISIS.

Back to McCain's flying skills. If they had been so horrible after they got his attitude in check he would more than very likely crashed on a carrier landing. Not many military pilots had that skill especially in the technology of that era. The Navy was dealing with crash losses on decks of ships, crash losses due to catastrophic events in the planes own electrical and mechanical systems which happened a lot even after Nam, and ones shot down.

John didn't fly very many missions. His record of go-arounds isn't readily available unless you know something I don't. Was he a great pilot? His commander at flight school sure didn't think so. He said he would have flunked him out. I would think he was in a better position than you to know. In addition his grades at Annapolis didn't qualifty him for flight school in the first place.

Pilots were in huge demand because in Nam we had many more carriers to man. We had 23 carriers to man in 1967 compared to 10 left today. That included our then two carrier 24/7/365 maintained presence in the MED SEA. After the Six Day War was it got more demanding on the carrier fleet because Suez was closed to carriers until 1981. That meant East Coast Based Carriers had a 13000 miles extra ride to get to Nam adding weeks to transit times. During transit flight ops had to continue to keep the pilots skills sharpened.

Interesting. It doesn't address McCain.

Another ongoing misconception is McCains transfer from Forestall. Squadrons are assigned a specific carrier for their actual deployment {the three to eight month long one} but many carriers qualify squadrons from other carriers. A day or two before a carrier pulls in the pilots fly off to their squadrons land base. As such they are not Ships Company permanently assigned to the ship and neither are their enlisted support squadron members. Once the ship docks they are gone to the squadron land air base cutting the number of persons on ship in half. Those who stay assigned to the ship are refereed to as Ships Company. They are there usually for duration of enlistment.

When a carrier pulls out to sea the pilots with planes return usually the second day a ship leaves port. The enlisted squadron members usually come aboard the day before getting underway.

Forestall due to extensive damage was headed into a major shipyard repair and out of commission and everyone knew it. With pilots needed elsewhere his squadron would have been ordered elsewhere. Those decisions are made in the Pentagon based on needs.

I've never considered his transfer from the Forestall to be problematic. The carrier needed to be repaired and he would naturally be transferred to another carrier.

Naval Aviation to be successful and mission ready takes pilots who are capable and willing to push the limits of their skills and the planes capabilities when needed. A pilot can have top notch flying skills and yet "might" choke when it comes to being pushed into flying into combat at their limits consistently. Another lesser skill pilot but still capable "might" not have mental issues with it. That's just the nature of it. It would be each individual pilots level of endurance and capabilities in all the factors it takes to do the job. It's high risk.

Well, once again this is an end run of sorts. We're not talking about other troops. We're not talking about Donald Trump. We're not talking about the relative aspects of other aviators and John. We're talking about John McCain, an individual whose commanding officer at flight school thought was not qualifid to be a Naval Aviator. Was the guy that lost between three and five of his ow aircraft a good pilot?

You may not believe so, but I believe there are gournd to question that.

I Like Trump, and don’t like McCain POLITICALLY.

But am sick and tired of all the unsubstantiated rumors about McCain’s military service, and would love to have everyone know the truth. For example, there was so much talk about what he supposedly said, but it was all what Radio Hanoi said he said, and what a Castro propagandist said he said.

There is supposedly a film where he decries our war in RVN... but no one can produce it.

Is there ANY substantiation that his commander in flight school thought him unqualified.

Not, “I know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy who says he saw a report....”

If one is going to attack a veteran, especially one who did years in the Hanoi Hilton with two broken arms, a broken leg, a shoulder crushed by a rifle butt and two bayonet wounds, where is the SPECIFIC SUBSTANTIATION of the charge?

FID?

Sorry, but I was a Army issued M1A1 Gravel Agitator.

Please, what’s a FID?

Thanks.

Colonel Ted Guy was McCain’s SRO. He wanted to bring McCain and few others up on charges upon their release.

Please, written SOURCE documentation of this, or is it Rumor #53

Source?

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/earlhopperinterview08feb08.shtml

“When he returned, there were several of the American prisoners, to include five colonels, Colonel Ted Guy, was the one that wanted to prefer charges against McCain and two or three other returned POWs because during the time they were in prison, they were not acting in accordance with the military code”.

Who is Colonel Earl Hopper?

https://www.patriotguard.org/showthread.php?307528-Col-Earl-Hopper-A-national-hero-has-died

“I had no idea I was headed for the FID at that time”

Pardon my ignorance, but what is “FID”?

Riddle me this. Stockdale was what rank at capture? What year was he captured? Was promoted how many times in rank during captivity?

I'll answer it for you. John McCain captured in October 1967 was a fresh LTCRD 0-4 meaning he had recently obtained that rank and thus a junior LTCDR as far as Time In Rank goes at time of his capture. His next rank would be Commander which can take time. His total captivity was 5.5 YEARS and that would be assuming he was one of the last released in April 1973. The releases began February 12, 1973 and concluded on April 4, 1973 with men held longest released first.

Stockdale had a lot more T.I.S. and likely a lot more time in his 0-5 paygrade. Stockdale was a full Commander at time of capture in 1965. He was held captive 7.5 years. Two more years than McCain was. He was promoted once in captivity to Captain probably at his most likely expected time of next rank. He made Rear Admiral and higher ranking after release. There is nothing abnormal in McCain's promotion as a POW.

Please, when you try to claim facts about McCain, do a little research on who you are quoting:

Earl Hopper? Jeezus! All of us on active or active reserve duty in the 70s, 80s and 90s knew about him. A real nut. It was a sad case, but he went round the bend and ended up making POW fundraising his own pork the girl piggybank.

He was also the media monthpiece for a Dem front group in ‘08 called Vietnam Veterans against McCain.

In reality, Hopper’s son son was the backseater on an F-4 shot down over NVN. The pilot punched out. Hopper Jr. did not (proof of this in dog tages, DNA, etc at wreck site were found in the 90s.)

Hopper’s big problem, and I can understand the twisted thinking that created it, is that Earl Hopper could never let go. He told everyone from DOD to Dogpatch that his son had been captured, was being held after the return of other prisoners, although all the other prisoners said that the kid never made it out of the a/c.

The loss of his son broke the old man’s heart.

But it get’s worse. For many years Hopper, Sr. openly carried on an affair with a woman named Patty Skelly. Hopper and Skelly are the ONLY members of an organization they invented called Task Force Omega — TFO consists of Skelly, Hopper, and an Internet connection, though they would have you believe that they are legion.

Hopper and Skelly met in the mid-1980s and soon were an item among MIA families — basically, old Earl was using MIA family activities as an excuse to bonk Patty — all the while his wife, Earl, Jr.’s mother, Betty — was fully aware of this but was powerless to do anything about it.

He used this Task Force Omega to raise money he spend on “research trips” to Thailand, etc. for Skelly and himself

Hopper claims to have extensive experience in Army intelligence. This is typical of his lies and misrepresentations. In his last job in the Army, Hopper was assigned as Director of Intelligence and Security at a small Army base — this is a typical retirement assignment because it requires no real activity, leaving the incumbent free to concentrate on retiring. Such positions have no real intelligence duties — but Hopper would have you believe that he was a colleague of Agent 007.

In his dreams.

One DIA admiral, a man with long experience in the intelligence field, and a man who had considerable dealings with Hopper, gave this assessment of Earl Hopper, Sr: “He couldn’t pour piss out of a boot with the instructions written on the sole.”

Next, Hopper’s crazy claims themselves: These are the actual quote from Hopper, with my capitalized notes:

“They took him (McCain) to the hospital, questioned him, and he gave highly classified information. WHAT INDEPENDANTLY SOURCED DOCUMENT SAYS HE DID?

The most important of which was he gave the “package route”, which was the route to bomb North Vietnam. He told in detail the altitude they were flying, the direction, if they made a turn, and how to get (into N. Vietnam ?)

THE PAVNAF KNEW ALL THE ROUTE PACKAGES. ANY AF WITH RADAR WOULD HAVE. IN HIS BOOK, GEN OLDS TALKS ABOUT HOW HARD HE HAD TO WORK TO GET USAF PLANNERS TO STOP USING THE SAME INGESS AND ENGRESS (PACKAGE) ROUTES EVERY MISSION, EVERY DAY.

He also gave them where the targets were; of their primary entry. Whether it was a railroad; whether is was a bridge; whether it was an ammunition or fuel dump; or whatever it was, he gave them the primary targets the United States was interested in.

SO MCCAIN TOLD THE NORTH VIETNAMESE WHERE THEIR OWN RAILROADS, BRIDGES, ETC WERE! AMAZING! I’LL BET THE NVA AF NEVER KNEW WHERE THEIR OWN RAILROADS AND BRIDGES WERE!

After he gave them that information, the Vietnamese naturally moved their anti- aircraft defenses into those areas and built them up and strengthened them. They also moved the rockets, aircraft weapons, into the “package route” of where the airplanes were flying in or egressing. The result of this, according to the information that came out later on, in intelligence, was that the Vietnamese started knocking down our aircraft in greater amounts than they had before. In fact, there was an estimate that we started losing 60% more aircraft and more men than we had previously. This went on for about a month, and it got so bad, that they finally called off the bombing of North Vietnam because of the information that McCain had given to them.

TOTAL HORSES**T. DID NOT HAPPEN.

When he returned, there were several of the American prisoners, to include five colonels, Colonel Ted Guy, was the one that wanted to prefer charges against McCain and two or three other returned POWs because during the time they were in prison, they were not acting in accordance with the military code. And as a result of these other colonels wanting to prefer charges against them, the Secretaries of the services got together and they decided that, No, they did not want these ‘renegade’ (my word, renegade) prisoners of war coming home to be charged and court marshaled.

WHO SAYS SO? EXCEPT SOME GUY WHO HAD NO PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE, AND WAS THE SPOKESPERSON FOR THE DEMS.

So the Secretaries of the armed services decided and told the other POWs that they would not allow these particular POWs to be charged and be court marshaled over their activities while in the POW camps. Consequently, none of the POWs ever went into the court; [and] never had any legal action taken against them for being traitors while they were in captivity.

WHO SAYS SO?

I’m sorry, but it’s gotten to the point where you will post anything negative about McCain, regardless of the source.

What’s next? Oscar The Grouch and Miss Piggy don’t like him?

There’s enough wrong with McCain’s current politics that these lies just dilute the emphasis on the real problems.

I’m sorry, but I’m not going to reply to any more of of this. All the adults know better than to listen to “war stories’ and phony barracks BS.

There’s no need to reply to anyone who doesn’t

Earl Hopper is a retired US Army Intelligence Colonel, whose son Earl Hopper Jr, has been MIA for 47 years in Vietnam. Just another missing American serviceman that the treasonous McCain threw under the bus. Earl Hopper the despised the “hero” John Kerry as much as he despised “hero” John McCain. To hell with both those anti-American asses. Both should have been changed with treason. Both are responsible for abandoning American MIAs. And that sir, is documented fact.

“I have no respect McCain. McCain has betrayed every American, especially every military man, and especially every pilot who flew in Vietnam after his capture. Everything about McCain is wrong and to elect him President would be a huge mistake.
~ Colonel Earl Hopper

“Kerry and McCain are two of a kind.... Kerry lied about his purple heart and McCain lied about his conduct while a POW in North Vietnam. Neither Kerry or McCain have any effective combat command experience and both Kerry and McCain have never helped with the POW issue” ~ Colonel Earl Hopper

Army Colonel Earl P. Hopper passed away July 11th 2008. He was 86. Earl Sr. and his wife Patty are the founders of Task Force Omega, Inc. established in 1983. The research-driven organization has concentrated its effort on the return of POWs abandoned in Vietnam and Laos after the Vietnam War. Earl Sr’s son Earl Jr. disappeared in North Vietnam in 1968. Earl Sr. enlisted in the Arizona National Guard in 1940. He served with distinction in WWII with the 101st Airborne Division. During the Korean War, he worked with Military Intelligence.

Well, since you’re unaware of the letter his commanding officer wrote, I guess I can discount your thoughts on most of this then.

His commanding officer wrote a letter outlining the problems he had with McCain, and unlike most of the other people in John’s life, he refused to sugar coat it.

John didn’t earn his way to flight school and once there he was a royal screw off. He flew one of his aircraft into the bay trying to land. He said it was the engine’s fault. The aircraft was hauled out of the bay and the engine worked just fine.

He stated himself what I have repeated.

I just with some of you guys would finally admit to yourselves what sort of man you are trying to defend.

John’s life is on the record. Pay attention to that record. Figure out for yourself just who John is. He IS NOT who you think he is.

Everything ON THE RECORD proves that.

Everything is on the record

Great.

Please show us the record.

Where, other than in a rumor or a some guy said that some guy said is the letter from his commander?

He didn't earn his way into flight school and was a royal screw off?

Where, other than in a rumor or a some guy said that some guy said is the documentation of that?.

McCann said what you have accused him of. Where? When? Where is the documentation of this?

We're not trying to "defend" anyone. We're simply saying, since you make all these accusations, where is any shred of documentable evidence to support those accusations.

Put yourself in the same situation. Assume you got a traffic ticked by certified mail. It accused you of reckless and drunk driving, serious matters.

You knew it was complete BS, so you went to court to fight it.

When they called the case, the State put on a cop who said he had been told by 2 people that you left a bar at 2:00 AM, drunk, and drove all over town drunk. No, he the cop had not seen you driving drunk; he had NOT seen you driving drunk, in fact he had not seen you driving at all, but someone told him you were, and he saw it posted on the Internet, too.

Then another cop said he had seen a newspaper article where you admitted you drove drunk, but he couldn't produce a copy oft that newspaper, nor could the newspaper publisher.

Then, some other people said that they had heard from someone that they had heard from someone you were driving drunk. There was absolutely no documentation of it, but that's what they said they heard.

Finally, at the same time, you are also a Conservative candidate for City Council. A reporter for the local far-left Gays and Druggies rag writes an auricle that you told him you admitted you were drunk, but of course, that reporter is a big supporter of your far-left Dem opponent.

When pressed for documentation of all this NO ONE HAS ONE SHRED OF DOCUMENTATION, OTHER THAN, "Someone claimed someone said that someone said....."

Is it Ok for the court to send you to jail for DWI?

Why not, if it's Ok for people to condemn McCain under the same circumstances.

McCain is a RINO political idiot, but trying to attack his military record only makes us look stupid and smarmy. Even worse, it takes time from things that really matter.

Senior military POWs in NVN say, on the record, on video, that the attacks on McCain are BS. Period