Posted on 07/20/2015 6:13:58 AM PDT by Hostage
Towards the end of the video where John McCain's betrayals are exposed By Vietnam Vets And POWs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hr37eE0nO8&feature=youtu.be
are found the remarks of former Congressman Dornan's which are accurate and highly plausible but are missing a vital part that deconstructs John McCain's character and the myth about his 'heroism'.
Here's the context with reference in italics to the Hanoi Hilton's POW Commanding Officer Admiral James Stockdale in his own words:
Admiral (then a USN Captain) Stockdale and all other POWs inside the Hanoi Hilton confirmed the only way to come home early was if Admiral Stockdale granted permission; there was no other way around it. There were very few early releasees. One was a Seaman Apprentice named Douglas Hegdahl III who had spent night and day memorizing the names of 256 aviators into a rhyme and jingle. He was ordered to be an early release because he had those names to pass on to his debriefer when he got home.
McCain was never ordered to early release although the enemy offered it to him. He refused because of the standing order given by his POW Commanding Officer James Stockdale. Many have construed this refusal as of his own volition. He did obey the order and the consequence of not obeying the order was well-described by Congressman Dornan.
From Admiral Stockdale's book p.254:
There was little concern in any American's mind about the possibility of the Vietnamese throwing anybody out to defame him; we now knew the Vietnamese well enough to be sure that any early releasee would have to buy his way out by groveling on his knees before the Communists, bad-mouthing America. I gave their new release program a name: FRP -- the "Fink Release Program," and that was the way it was to be known. I also issued an order that started on its way to the other cell blocks of Las Vegas and with subsequent movers to the camps elsewhere in the city and outside it: "No early release; we all go home together".
John McCain's betrayals Exposed By Vietnam Vets And POWs:
“Good try but that’s not while he was a POW.”
You just are not very good at reading.
“For heroic achievement while serving as a Prisoner of War in North Vietnam...”
“Distinguished Flying Crosses went to just about every pilot that flew combat sorties over North Vietnam.”
Yeah, ever wonder why? BECAUSE IT WAS DANGEROUS!
Sorry, boy, but you are full of crap! You don’t have the brains God gives a goose.
“The scam the press has created...”
The press didn’t create his time in Hanoi. It didn’t send him to Vietnam in the first place. The press didn’t break his bones. The press didn’t torture him. Heck, the press wasn’t in the plane with him when he pressed the attack - like a good pilot would.
> “valor is not heroism. . .really?”
Yeah, really.
Also bravery is not heroism nor is intrepidity.
Those are not my distinctions. Those are the distinctions held in citation review sections of the Pentagon. To even be considered for heroism one must be recommended by one’s Commanding Officer and then pass an investigation and review.
McCain was never put in for a citation for heroism because there were never any heroic acts that he performed. He was obviously brave and intrepid, and was said to have displayed valor and resistance but never heroism. He was put in for a Navy Commendation Medal for his time in the Hanoi Hilton which cited many things none which were acts of heroism.
McCain is documented as a highly decorated veteran but there is no hero story to his time in service. His hero story is a lie created by the media and carried by the political establishment and allowed to exist by him until just this morning when he finally admitted he was not a hero.
Medals for specific acts of heroism were and are not given out lightly.
> “For heroic achievement ...”
The term ‘heroic achievement’ is not the same as ‘heroic acts’. And there is a distinction between those terms. It’s not an act of heroism to survive. It’s commendable, it’s an achievement but it’s not heroism as an act.
McCain survived and was cited for his ability to survive and resist as a “heroic achievement”. Every POW that stayed in the HH was cited similarly. There are no heroic acts listed in McCain’s citation.
McCain performed no acts of heroism. He admitted this morning that he’s not a hero. His refusal of early release was mandated by a standing order of Admiral Stockdale’s. But his refusal was twisted to a myth of a heroic action that he was genuinely concerned about the treatment of other POWs and that’s why he refused. No that is not why he refused. When he was first offered early release he said in his own words “I will need to think about it”.
Admiral Stockdale is the one who committed true acts of heroism in the HH. And those acts are documented, cited and archived.
A class of ‘98 member should know better than to use that language here.
“The term ‘heroic achievement’ is not the same as ‘heroic acts’. And there is a distinction between those terms. It’s not an act of heroism to survive. It’s commendable, it’s an achievement but it’s not heroism as an act.”
Darned if I can figure out how a non-hero has heroic achievements, let alone “For heroism while participating in aerial flight 26 October 1967 in North Vietnam...”
I’ve been called worse without anyone ever moderating it...
I had the citations, commendations and awards for McCain before you mentioned them here. I noted immediately the term for 'heroic achievement' and compared that to the manual which denotes precisely the usage of words involving 'hero' as nouns and adjectives. It's a big distinction because often there are events that seem to overlap.
McCain knows this. He was asked to respond this morning to false allegations that Trump had said he was not a hero. To his credit McCain told the truth because he knows there is no specific act of heroism cited in his record while a POW. He knows that Admiral Stockdale was the one that was specifically cited for acts of heroism.
The bottomline is that 'heroic achievement' is not the same as 'heroic act' which is identical to heroism as an act. In the first case it is an adjective, in the second case it is identical to the noun.
Here's an example citation for 'heroism' meaning 'heroic acts' that illustrate the distinction: The following is the citation for the Navy and Marine Corps Medal presented posthumously to Master-at-Arms 2nd Class Mark A. Mayo for his actions on March 24, 2014. The medal was awarded Aprikl 25, 2014 in a ceremony at Arlington National Cemetery.
CITATION: For heroism while serving at Naval Station Norfolk Security Detachment, Norfolk, Virginia on 24 March 2014. While performing his duties as Chief of the Guard, Petty Officer Mayo was alerted to a suspicious individual walking towards USS MAHAN (DDG-72) on Pier 1, Naval Station Norfolk.
Petty Officer Mayo pursued the individual up the brow of the ship while both he and the Quarterdeck watch-standers directed the individual to stop and provide identification.
Failing to comply, the individual approached the Quarterdeck, attacked and disarmed the Petty Officer of the Watch. After boarding the ship, Petty Officer Mayo realized that the Petty Officer of the Watch no longer had control of her weapon.
With complete and total disregard for his own personal safety, Petty Officer Mayo immediately placed himself between the Petty Officer of the Watch and the assailant.
While fearlessly engaging the assailant and shielding the Petty Officer of the Watch, Petty Officer Mayo was fatally wounded. His exceptionally brave actions saved the lives of four watch-standers and ensured the safety of the entire crew of USS MAHAN (DDG-72).
By his courageous and prompt actions in the face of great personal risk, Petty Officer Mayo prevented the loss of lives, thereby reflecting great credit upon himself and upholding the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.
For the President, JONATHAN W. GREENERT Admiral, United States Navy
No comparable narrative for heroism exists for John McCain but one comparable does exist for Admiral Stockdale.
Bring it to our attention if it occurs.
I wonder what office in the “Pentagon” is the clearing house for awards. . never came across it while working on the Sec AF staff. Pentagon (CoSs) is to “train and equip,” theater CINCS are warfighters. Joint staff and DOD have different responsibilities. Clearly the guy has no clue as to who reports to who and how the process works.
Suggest he be left alone while he pounds furiously in his dark basement, growing more angry by the minute as his mind plumbs deeper into the pit of hate and his heart grows cold, becoming more irrational and always yielding to his juvenile self that demands the "last word," be it an insult or be it uninformed ignorant feelings. He will never let it go, his inner-child will not allow it. An adult will let it go. We know the facts, we expressed our informed points well and as adults, we can move on. . .something an inner-child will never allow.
Honored to read your thoughtful posts and I respect your service.
I’ve always enjoyed your posts as well. And I appreciate your good advice! Cheers!
Ok smart guy so what specifically were the acts of heroism that McCain performed?
No need to.
My objection to McCain is in the present.
McCain continually betrays the people he represents and the country at large. To do so, using the shield that he was a “hero” in years past, does not excuse his present behavior.
Calling Trump’s supporters “crazies” opens McCain up to the criticisms he is receiving.....Rightfully so.
If you can’t take the flack, don’t fly bombing missions!
Question? “Under the “Code of Conduct” could any officer, captured by the enemy, act in a manner other than “heroic” and still remain true to the Code, his fellow officers, and himself?
In this respect McCain is quite ordinary among our returned POWs from that era.
The very fact that he was a POW doesn’t give McCain a pass for the rest of his life. He needs to watch his mouth when talking about other Republicans and/or their supporters.
For me, I am tired of McCain, his daughter and wife, and any impact they have, or try to have, on American politics. It is long past the time this old fool retires. (and that statement should have been Trump’s response to any question about McCain.)
I find the whole incident to be nothing more than a tempest in a teapot stirred up in the MSM’s attempts to derail Trump and his control of the direction of the political discussion this election cycle. Let’s face it, Trump has usurped the MSM!
End of discussion......
http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/134833vol1.pdf
Terms have distinct meanings and acts have well-defined criteria to meet.
Achievement is a process that can be described by an adjective as ‘fair’, ‘excellent’, ‘superior’, ‘exemplary’ even ‘heroic’.
The word ‘achievement’ is not an act but a process. And I said there were no ‘acts’ of heroism while a POW in McCain’s record. I have found none. I saw the citation for ‘achievement’ but manuals make a clear distinction in terms between that and acts. When a military lawyer or lawyers sat down ti draft McCain’s citation, they chose the word ‘achievement’. That was not an accident or random sloppiness. If there were ‘acts’ they would have listed and described them.
You seem to think you are the only one that could find McCain’s award citations on the internet after I first told you there were no acts for heroism cited in McCain’s record as a POW. Yet I had the citations before you mentioned and had read them presumably before you found them.
So what are the specific ‘acts’ as a POW related to McCain’s heroism? I don’t think you csn answer because there are none.
You found ‘heroism’ in a citation for his flying over North Vietnam. I found that too; it’s not difficult. But that was a standard award for pilots that flew similar sorties over North Vietnam.
Why do you think the media did NOT report McCain as a ‘hero’ pilot for flights over North Vietnam? Was he an ace pilot? Why didn’t they play that part up? It’s pretty obvious why they did not do that. Do you consider him a ‘hero’ for flying missions over North Vietnam? Why? I, myself consider any pilot that flies into enemy territory against fire as worthy of the deepest respect. as a ‘brave’ warrior and in some circumstances a ‘hero’ if the mission saved lives.
But the question was not about McCain’s citations for flying, it was about his acts as a POW. I. myself believe each POW in the HH was to be commended as a survivor against near impossible odds of survival. But what specific acts did McCain do that saved the lives of others? There were without doubt specific acts by Admiral Stockdale that have been documented, cited and archived but none by McCain. What’s your information on what acts McCain did as a POW to save lives?
And why did McCain admit this morning that he was not a hero as a POW but that others inside the HH were? Why is that?
Answer those questions and I’ll give you credit. I just don’t think you can. Prove me wrong.
Well, what’s the answer?
I’m asking you sincerely, what specific acts as a POW did John McCain perform that saved the lives others?
> “I wonder what office in the “Pentagon” is the clearing house for awards. . never came across it while working on the Sec AF staff. Pentagon (CoSs) is to “train and equip,” theater CINCS are warfighters. Joint staff and DOD have different responsibilities. Clearly the guy has no clue as to who reports to who and how the process works.”
Clearly some are not equipped for research or legal work, or anything requiring attention to detail and definitions of terms.
b. Defense/Joint Decorations and Awards
(1) Each recommendation for a Defense/Joint decoration (see Appendix 1 of this enclosure) is evaluated on the merits of the justification submitted. The justification must be specific, factual, and provide ***concrete examples of exactly what the person did***, how well he or
she did it, what the impact or benefits were, and how he or she significantly exceeded expected duty performance.
(2) All recommendations for Defense/Joint decorations shall be submitted by official memorandum or letter (original plus 3 copies) through command or staff channels to the appropriate approval authority. The JTF and special program offices must process award recommendations through the Executive Agent (EA) and, where applicable, the appropriate OSD principal staff assistant (PSA). The narrative justification for either the DDSM or the DSSM shall not exceed three single-spaced typewritten pages; DMSM shall not exceed two single spaced typewritten pages; and for lesser Defense/Joint decorations, it shall not exceed a single spaced typewritten page. Supporting documentation only should be included when such documentation is essential to the recommendation. Figure 1 shows the sample format for Defense/Joint Award recommendations.
http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/134833vol1.pdf
All reviews are handled inside he Pentagon right next to:
http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/AboutUs/Contact.aspx
with satellite offices in Fort Belvoir.
You know what, I take McCain to task for what I know to be problematic about him. Frankly, I don’t like doing it.
I may not be entirely fair, but I didn’t suppress information about him while he was still a POW in LAOS, Cambodia, or Vietnam.
I didn’t promise his family information about him, then neglect to ever let them have it.
John did promise the families of 475 men still missing that the Senate Select committee would release all the information the U. S. government had about them, and then never follow through.
Others on that committee wanted to release all information. McCain fought tooth and nail not to. Other committee members state this.
The public asked the Senate to do a study on POWs / MIAs in Vietnam. One senator fought tooth and nail to prevent the committee from being formed. It took nine months to get that committee operational. That because of one man, John McCain.
So I’m a bad guy for talking about McCain now that he’s home and 40 years have passed, but he’s not a bad guy for fighting the families of the MIA men and veterans groups to get a full accounting of men left behind.
My what makes some people indignant.
People left behind due in large to one man, not a problem.
Criticizing that man who is free today? Oh the humanities.
Spare me.
That’s what I was hoping he would do. He seems to think John McCain was the only POW who was ordered not to take early release.
Exactly.
I do not believe that John McCain dishonored himself or his country while he was a POW in Vietnam.
I cannot say the same thing about his service in the U.S. senate.
McCain could have gone home without the permission of anyone. This was in North Vietnam. McCain was being tortured physically and mentally because he was an Admirals son and it would have been a great propaganda coup for the Commies. He stayed heroically.
Trump stayed in New York.
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