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To: Arthur McGowan
Your claim is that Catholics owe the Pope total submission whenever he opens his mouth. That is the cartoon (as in “Jack Chick”) Catholicism of the anti-Catholic propagandist. You are attacking me for NOT being the groveling Papolater of the Fundy tracts.

Actually, while you have expressed your opinions, i have provided teaching set forth by RCs themselves, with the only way out being to exclude the modern popes as being valid popes (and Dictatus papae [1075] states that "That he [the pope] himself may be judged by no one):

when we love the Pope, there are no discussions regarding what he orders or demands, or up to what point obedience must go, and in what things he is to be obeyed ; when we love the Pope, we do not say that he has not spoken clearly enough, almost as if he were forced to repeat to the ear of each one the will clearly expressed so many times not only in person, but with letters and other public documents ; we do not place his orders in doubt, adding the facile pretext of those unwilling to obey – that it is not the Pope who commands, but those who surround him; we do not limit the field in which he might and must exercise his authority ; we do not set above the authority of the Pope that of other persons, however learned, who dissent from the Pope, who, even though learned, are not holy, because whoever is holy cannot dissent from the Pope.

Which is preceded by,

Similarly, it is to give proof of a submission which is far from sincere to set up some kind of opposition between one Pontiff and another. Those who, faced with two differing directives, reject the present one to hold to the past, are not giving proof of obedience to the authority which has the right and duty to guide them; and in some ways they resemble those who, on receiving a condemnation, would wish to appeal to a future council, or to a Pope who is better informed.....

Since the Church is one and her head is one, so, too, her government is one, and all must conform to this...

The Bishops form the most sacred part of the Church, that which instructs and governs men by divine right; and so he who resists them and stubbornly refuses to obey their word places himself outside the Church [cf. Matt. 18:18]. But obedience must not limit itself to matters which touch the faith: its sphere is much more vast: it extends to all matters which the episcopal power embraces.. .

If by chance there should be in the ranks of the episcopate a bishop not sufficiently mindful of his dignity and apparently unfaithful to one of his sacred obligations, in spite of this he would lose nothing of his power, and, so long as he remained in communion with the Roman Pontiff, it would certainly not be permitted to anyone to relax in any detail the respect and obedience which are due his authority. On the other hand, to scrutinize the actions of a bishop, to criticize them, does not belong to individual Catholics, but concerns only those who, in the sacred hierarchy, have a superior power; above all, it concerns the Supreme Pontiff, for it is to him that Christ confided the care of feeding not only all the lambs, but even the sheep [cf. John 21:17]. At the same time, when the faithful have grave cause for complaint, they are allowed to put the whole matter before the Roman Pontiff, provided always that, safeguarding prudence and the moderation counseled by concern for the common good, they do not give vent to outcries and recriminations which contribute rather to the rise of divisions and ill-feeling, or certainly increase them. These fundamental principles, which cannot be gainsaid without bringing in their wake confusion and ruin in the government of the Church , We have many, many times been careful to recall and to inculcate... (Pope Saint Pius X, Allocution Vi ringrazio to priests on the 50th anniversary of the Apostolic Union, November 18, 1912, as found at: (“Love the Pope! ” – no ifs, and no buts: For Bishops, priests, and faithful, Saint Pius X explains what loving the Pope really entails.)- http://christorchaos.com/?q=content/choosing-ignore-pope-leo-xiii-and-pope-saint-pius-x

Which provides details behind the broad submission of in VEHEMENTER NOS,

"It follows that the Church is essentially an unequal society, that is, a society comprising two categories of per sons, the Pastors and the flock...the one duty of the multitude is to allow themselves to be led, and, like a docile flock, to follow the Pastors." (VEHEMENTER NOS, an Encyclical of Pope Pius X promulgated on February 11, 1906),

411 posted on 06/21/2015 4:31:30 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212

1) The stuff you’ve copied-and-pasted was written when clericalism was at a high-water mark. There is no subject on which some clerics are as likely to wax rhapsodic as the respect and submission that are owed to clerics. All their moral capital was squandered a long time ago. No Catholic is bound by the outbursts of every hyper-emotional Italian.

2) In apparitions APPROVED BY THE CHURCH, our Blessed Mother speaks emphatically about BAD BISHOPS, BAD CARDINALS, and even a BAD POPE. It would be nonsensical for Mary to warn us about bad hierarchs if we were FORBIDDEN TO DISCERN which hierarchs ARE bad and which ones ARE faithful.

3) At this point, I invite you to take up your beef with Mary, the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, the Mother of God, the Queen of Heaven, the Queen of the Angels, Co-Redemptrix, and Mediatrix of All Graces, about her disrespect for the Pope, Cardinals, and Bishops of the Church.


413 posted on 06/21/2015 5:32:35 AM PDT by Arthur McGowan
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