Just like Protestant churches and their followers regarding homosexual “marriage,” not all Catholics will follow the Pope’s ideas with this particular issue. We’ve had worse popes, and we will survive this one.
>> We’ve had worse popes, and we will survive this one.
Unless this Marxist man-pleaser turns out to be an antichrist.
But RCs present the papacy and magisterium and submission to it as the solution to false beliefs and division due to souls interpreting Scripture as the supreme authority.
It follows that the Church is essentially an unequal society, that is, a society comprising two categories of per sons, the Pastors and the flock...the one duty of the multitude is to allow themselves to be led, and, like a docile flock, to follow the Pastors. - VEHEMENTER NOS, an Encyclical of Pope Pius X promulgated on February 11, 1906.
“All that we must do [as must be patent enough now] is to submit our judgment and conform our beliefs to the authority Almighty God has set up on earth to teach us; this, and nothing else.”
“Absolute, immediate, and unfaltering submission to the teaching of God's Church on matters of faith and morals-----this is what all must give..”
“The Vicar of Christ is the Vicar of God; to us the voice of the Pope is the voice of God. This, too, is why Catholics would never dream of calling in question the utterance of a priest in expounding Christian doctrine according to the teaching of the Church;”
“He is as sure of a truth when declared by the Catholic Church as he would be if he saw Jesus Christ standing before him and heard Him declaring it with His Own Divine lips.”
“So if God [via Rome] declares that the Blessed Virgin was conceived Immaculate, or that there is a Purgatory, or that the Holy Eucharist is the real Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, shall we say, "I am not sure about that. I must examine it for myself; I must see whether it is true, whether it is Scriptural?"
“..our act of confidence and of blind obedience is highly honoring to Almighty God,..” —“Henry G. Graham, "What Faith Really Means", (Nihil Obstat:C. SCHUT, S. T.D., Censor Deputatus, Imprimatur: EDM. CANONICUS SURMONT, D.D.,Vicarius Generalis. WESTMONASTERII, Die 30 Septembris, 1914 )]
"The intolerance of the Church toward error, the natural position of one who is the custodian of truth, her only reasonable attitude makes her forbid her children to read or to listen to heretical controversy, or to endeavor to discover religious truths by examining both sides of the question. This places the Catholic in a position whereby he must stand aloof from all manner of doctrinal teaching other than that delivered by his Church through her accredited ministers." (John H. Stapleton, Explanation of Catholic Morals, Chapters XIX, XXIII. the consistent believer (1904); Nihil Obstat. Remy Lafort, Censor Librorum. Imprimatur, John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York )
While RCs look to their non-infallible leaders, the problem with sola ecclesia, in which the church via its papacy and magisterium is supreme, and souls are to render implicit submission to them, is that insofar as when leadership goes South then so do their followers.
There is a difference in the kind of submission infallible, teachings, irreformable divinely revealed truths (which arguably constitute the smaller portion of what RCs believe and practice), require (which, according to various Catholic sources, is that of "sacred assent," "internal assent," that being "assent of faith" "without wavering," "submission of faith," "assent of mind and heart," “obedience of faith,” "theological faith," “divine and Catholic faith.”
One who doubts these articles lacks faith that Rome possesses ensured veracity, and falls into heresy), and "authentic" but non-definitive teachings (ordinary teaching requires "ordinary assent," that being "religious submission of will and intellect," submission of mind and will," which "forbids public contradiction of the teaching")." An obstinate refusal to give "assent of faith" when it is due is a sin against the virtue of faith, while obstinate refusal to give "religious assent" when it is due is a sin against the virtue of charity. - (Instruction on the Ecclesial Vocation of Theologian, 32; http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19900524_theologian-vocation_en.html).
Some Catholics actually define 3 or 4 levels of magisterial teaching, the first being papal ex cathedra decrees, and then universal infallible conciliar pronouncements in union with the pope and following from his presumed authority, and the third being papal encyclicals, and the fourth being non-definitive teachings. Some lump 1+2 together to only have 3, while others lump 3+4 together, with the fourth becoming more general non-doctrinal papal teaching, and as allowing more room to dissent. But public dissent is never sanctioned from what i can see.
However, not only may there be different levels of teaching found in the same document, but what level each teaching falls under (and how many infallible teachings there are, and what they all are), and what level of assent is required, as well as aspects of their meaning, are all subject to variant and varying degrees of interpretations.
Consider what can be required to determine the magisterial; level of just papal teaching:
The key is the intention of the Pope. He may be repeating existing definitive teaching from Ordinary Magisterium level - then it is infallible, as on level 2. He may be giving a decision on a previously debated point - as on level 3, then it falls under the promise of Christ in Lk 10. 16, and so is also infallible. Or it may be a still lesser intention - then we have a case like that envisioned in Canon 752 of the New Code of Canon Law: "Not indeed an assent of faith, but yet a religious submission of mind and will must be given to the teaching which either the Supreme Pontiff, or the College of Bishops [of course, with the Pope] pronounce on faith or on morals when they exercise the authentic Magisterium even if they do not intend to proclaim it by a definitive act." ...What does this require? Definitely, it forbids public contradiction of the teaching. But it also requires something in the mind, as the wording indicates. - http://www.ewtn.com/library/scriptur/4levels.txt
Then you have the disagreement btwn traditional RCs and V2 Caths. As one post wryly commented,
The last time the church imposed its judgment in an authoritative manner on "areas of legitimate disagreement," the conservative Catholics became the Sedevacantists and the Society of St. Pius X, the moderate Catholics became the conservatives, the liberal Catholics became the moderates, and the folks who were excommunicated, silenced, refused Catholic burial, etc. became the liberals. The event that brought this shift was Vatican II; conservatives then couldn't handle having to actually obey the church on matters they were uncomfortable with, so they left. — Nathan, http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/blog/2005/05/fr-michael-orsi-on-different-levels-of.html
Yet as JP2 non-infallibly stated:
You have no right any more to bring up the distinction between the doctrinal and the pastoral that you use to support your acceptance of certain texts of Vatican Council II and your rejection of others. It is true that the matters decided in any Council do not all call for an assent of the same quality; only what the Council affirms in its 'definitions' as a truth of faith or as bound up with faith requires the assent of faith. Nevertheless, the rest also form a part of the SOLEMN MAGISTERIUM of the Church, to be trustingly accepted and sincerely put into practice by every Catholic." (Paul VI, Epistle Cum te to Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, 11 Oct, 1976, published in Notitiae, No. 12, 1976.)
The disagreement on magisterial levels and the meaning of teachings is contrary to the RC model for discernment of Truth and unity, under which the magisterium is to be looked to and submitted, and a faithful RC is not to ascertain the veracity of RC teaching by examination of evidences. For to do so would be to doubt the claims of Rome to be the sure teacher by which a RC obtains assurance of Truth.
Thus RCs who examine the evidence for certain V2 and modern teachings and judge them as allowing for and requiring dissent are labelled by some of their brethren as basically being Protestant, and deal with the problem of disagreement over what teachings are infallible, or even "authentic" by holding that faithful Catholics are simply to obey with religious assent of intellect and will any public papal teaching or Catholic doctrine by the authentic magisterium, whether infallible or not. Of course, just what is "authentic" - an ambiguous term often used - sees disagreement.
According to a SSPV source, arguing against "resist but recognize the pontiff," Pius X stated,
Obedience must not limit itself to matters which touch the faith: its sphere is much more vast: it extends to all matters which the episcopal power embraces .
when we love the Pope, there are no discussions regarding what he orders or demands, or up to what point obedience must go , and in what things he is to be obeyed ; when we love the Pope, we do not say that he has not spoken clearly enough, almost as if he were forced to repeat to the ear of each one the will clearly expressed so many times not only in person, but with letters and other public documents ; we do not place his orders in doubt, adding the facile pretext of those unwilling to obey – that it is not the Pope who commands, but those who surround him; we do not limit the field in which he might and must exercise his authority... http://christorchaos.com/?q=content/choosing-ignore-pope-leo-xiii-and-pope-saint-pius-x (Pope Saint Pius X, Allocution Vi ringrazio to priests on the 50th anniversary of the Apostolic Union, November 18, 1912, as found at: (“Love the Pope! ” – no ifs, and no buts: For Bishops, priests, and faithful, Saint Pius X explains what loving the Pope really entails.)- http://christorchaos.com/?q=content/choosing-ignore-pope-leo-xiii-and-pope-saint-pius-x < /p>
As concerns encyclicals, that these requires religious dissent in general is seen as supported by,
Humani Generis: Nor must it be thought that what is expounded in Encyclical Letters does not of itself demand consent, since in writing such Letters the Popes do not exercise the supreme power of their Teaching Authority. For these matters are taught with the ordinary teaching authority, of which it is true to say: "He who heareth you, heareth me";[3] and generally what is expounded and inculcated in Encyclical Letters already for other reasons appertains to Catholic doctrine. But if the Supreme Pontiffs in their official documents purposely pass judgment on a matter up to that time under dispute, it is obvious that that matter, according to the mind and will of the Pontiffs, cannot be any longer considered a question open to discussion among theologians. - http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html
Since the year 1878, when Pope Leo XIII began to rule, as Christ’s vicar on earth, over the Church militant, over one hundred fifty encyclical letters have been issued by the Sovereign Pontiffs...The distinguished theologians who deny the papal encyclicals the status of infallible documents teach, none the less, that the faithful are bound in conscience to accord these letters not only the tribute of respectful silence, but also a definite and sincere internal religious assent.....This authority (of the papal encyclicals) is undoubtedly great. It is, in a sense, sovereign. It is the teaching of the supreme pastor and teacher of the Church. Hence the faithful have a strict obligation to receive this teaching with an infinite respect. A man must not be content simply not to contradict it openly and in a more or less scandalous fashion. An internal mental assent is demanded. It should be received as the teaching sovereignly authorized within the Church. http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/encyclicals/docauthority.htm:
This would seem- esp. if the doctrine of Pius X is deemed worthy of assent of mind and will -RCs are to thus follow the anti-fracking, seeming socialist, anti-capitalist, doctrinal marginalizing, evangelical-affirming non-proselytization pope, as well as all V2 teaches, or t varyijg degrees, to be of the traditionalists who dissent from so much modern teaching based upon their interpretation of historical teaching.
The release of the much-awaited climate message puts a trigger on a series of events that were more than a year in the planning.
I think you FR Catholics are slow to get it...'They' are the Catholic religion, not you guys...You've been telling us how 'rogue' this pope is...He's not rogue at all...He is what the Catholic religion chose as its leader they they are as happy as could be that your pope thinks the same way they do...
Yup; and collectively (nice word!) they created PROTESTANTism.
Pope Stephen VI (896–897), who had his predecessor Pope Formosus exhumed, tried, de-fingered, briefly reburied, and thrown in the Tiber.[1]
Pope John XII (955–964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.
Pope Benedict IX (1032–1044, 1045, 1047–1048), who "sold" the Papacy
Pope Boniface VIII (1294–1303), who is lampooned in Dante's Divine Comedy
Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), who complained that he did not hear enough screaming when Cardinals who had conspired against him were tortured.[2]
Pope Alexander VI (1492–1503), a Borgia, who was guilty of nepotism and whose unattended corpse swelled until it could barely fit in a coffin.[3]
Pope Leo X (1513–1521), a spendthrift member of the Medici family who once spent 1/7 of his predecessors' reserves on a single ceremony[4]
Pope Clement VII (1523–1534), also a Medici, whose power-politicking with France, Spain, and Germany got Rome sacked.
Protestants often get bashed over the head on this site for having "30,000 denominations".
Catholics on the other hand tell us they have one Church. However, it seems they are willing to ignore their leaders when it suits them.
How do you know what is divinely inspired and what isn't if you ignore your leadership?
EXACTLY! THANK YOU!