Posted on 02/04/2015 11:01:19 AM PST by Kaslin
This week, controversy broke out over whether state governments have the power to require parents to have their children vaccinated. New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, no stranger to compelling his citizens to stay off the roads during blizzards, announced that he had some sympathy for the anti-vaccination position: "I also understand that parents need to have some measure of choice in things as well. So that's the balance the government has to decide." Kentucky Senator Rand Paul doubled down on Christie's remarks, stating, "I have heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking, normal children who wound up with profound mental orders after vaccines. ...The state doesn't own your children."
Christie and Paul aren't the only politicians sympathizing with anti-vaccination fanatics; in 2008, then-Senator Barack Obama repeated widely debunked claims of links between autism and vaccination. Skepticism of vaccination crosses party lines, unfortunately -- although the most organized anti-vaccination resistance comes from the New Agey left in places like Santa Monica and Marin County, who worry more about infinitesimal amounts of formaldehyde in vaccines than about death by polio.
Unsurprisingly, older Americans believe that children should be vaccinated against diseases like measles, mumps and whopping cough, by a 73 percent to 21 percent margin. Americans 18-29, by contrast, believe by a 43 percent to 42 percent plurality that government should not mandate such vaccinations.
That's because young people don't remember a time when such diseases claimed lives. They don't remember a time when the vast majority of Americans weren't vaccinated. Older people do. Many of them lost loved ones to polio and measles and mumps and rubella. In 1952, over 3,000 Americans died of polio and well over 21,000 were left with mild or severe paralysis. Thanks to Dr. Jonas Salk's vaccine, there have been zero cases of natural polio in the United States since 1979.
The same is true of measles. According to Dr. Mark Papania of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, more than 90 percent of Americans suffered from the measles by age 15 before widespread vaccination beginning in 1962. From 1956 to 1960, he reports, "an average of 542,000 cases were reported annually." That included 450 deaths per year, as well as 150,000 cases of respiratory complications and 4,000 cases of consequent encephalitis per year, many of which resulted in later death. Then mandatory vaccination kicked in. Until a major upswing in 2014, we averaged less than 100 cases of measles per year in the United States since 2000.
The point of mandatory vaccinations is not merely to protect those who are vaccinated. When it comes to measles, mumps and rubella, for example, children cannot be vaccinated until 1 year of age. The only way to prevent them from getting diseases is to ensure that those who surround them do not have those diseases. The same is true for children with diseases like leukemia, as well as pregnant women. Herd immunity is designed to protect third parties.
But Americans have short memories and enormous confidence in junk science. Parents will ignore vaccinations but ensure that their kids are stocked up with the latest homeopathic remedies, Kabbalah bracelets and crystals. St. John's wort, red string and crystals all existed before 1962. They didn't stop the measles. Vaccination did.
That doesn't mean that all vaccinations should be compulsory, of course. There are certain diseases that can only be transmitted by behavior, like HPV. There are others that are too varied for effective herd vaccination, like the flu shot. But when it comes to measles and mumps and rubella and polio, your right to be free of vaccination -- and your right to be a dope with the health of your child because you believe Jenny McCarthy's idiocy -- ends where my child's right to live begins.
If you can get an exemption then it is not mandated. Please refer to the dictionary for a definition of the word mandate. The status quo does allow exemptions. If you are in favor of removing those exemptions then you are a big govt nanny state supporter.
Name calling won’t change any of those facts.
I seriously have an issue with the government forcing new vaccines on people with no studies of its long term effects. Because we dont know the long term effects, as the vaccine is new.
That is why I really am against the varicella vaccine.
The first thing I want to see is lots of the green vans that belong to la migra taking every man, woman and child back across the border, be it the northern or the southern one.
And while I did vaccinate my kid, I found a pediatrician who believed that bombarding a kid’s system with too many vaccines in a short time might do harm to their immune system-so they were much more widely spaced out than most docs would do.
But it is still a parental choice-I never want to see grubby nanny government hands on someone’s child again-before I got tired of listening to people whine and went to work in construction in 2001, I was a workers comp case manager-in the process of getting the education for that career, I was assigned to do my practicum for a degree in social work at DHS/CPS-they are the REAL child abusers, and have zero respect for parental rights-ANY parents-some case workers/managers even scared poor, pregnant-and married-women by saying they could lose their kids if they did not get an abortion. Government telling parents what they must give/feed/subject a child to, or anything else-no, hell no, not ever-they only do terrible harm.
I’d love to see a bunch of parents in some place like California hire a big-time law firm and file a class action suit against the immigration authorities for the expense, and punitive damages caused to them and their kids from exposure to disease from illegals in their schools by not enforcing the immigration laws.
If you can take a break from criticizing my reading comprehension, go back and read what I said....
I stated there have been no deaths in the current measles cases in the United States. I said nothing about possible harms from vaccinations.
My point is yet vaccinations are voluntary and that system is working. There are exemptions and no reason to take them away no matter how worked up jack-booted thugs such as yourself get about telling everyone what is best for them.
If you want to take away exemptions, you are giving control to the government and better have a compelling reason. Since the status quo is working, you fail to demonstrate that need.
I have concerns. My wife and I weighed the risks for each one. My kids got vaccinations for the bad stuff, but did pass on some of the silly ones.
Gardasil was one of the ones we skipped. The vaccine was rushed to production, advertised as doing more than the studies supported, was only a short term cure and something my kids could get later if they decided they wanted it. Govenor goodhair (perry) lost my whole family as supporters over that issue. Sure, I didn’t like the trans international corridor or how cozy he was with big insurance.... But Gardasil was the straw that broke the camels back for us.
People like Fred who think the state knows best truely scare me. To repeat myself (yet again), the current system gives the parents the choice. Any talk of mandatory vaccinations means taking that choice away, with an emphasis on the word taking.
All you had to do was get a titer? I’m unclear, this seems entirely sensible?
Get enough people unvaccinated, say, like a flood of Jeb's Love Bugs from Mexico…and you start getting outbreaks.
They you need to make scapegoats of the few "non compliant" who don't want to be vaccinated. That's what is going on here. And the media are right on cue from orders from above to create another "War On--fill in the blank" hysteria. Anything to avoid noticing the pathogens coming from our southern border.
She had both the shots. Our pediatrician didn’t recommend her getting another shot unless she didn’t have the antibodies. The blood test is enough proof. The risk of having a third, unnecessary shot was enough to say NO and have the blood test proving her immunity. The MMR Vaccines worked in that respect.
If you want me to put something in my vain from this government then lock up Lois Lerner first.
The other issue is where the boundaries lie in terms of government coercing citizens to comply with required measures such as compulsory vaccination. Much different issue, and worth keeping straight.
Those who don't get this distinction should really do the rest of us a favor and stfu.
They might be held accountable if we can get the news out and people begin to understand the risks associated with vaccines.
Following is excerpt from CDC Whistleblower William Thompson
“FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE-AUGUST 27,2014
STATEMENT OF WILLIAM W. THOMPSON, Ph.D., REGARDING THE 2004 ARTICLE EXAMINING THE POSSIBILITY OF A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN MMR VACCINE AND AUTISM
My name is William Thompson. I am a Senior Scientist with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, where I have worked since 1998.
I regret that my coauthors and I omitted statistically significant information in our 2004 article published in the journal Pediatrics. The omitted data suggested that African American males who received the MMR vaccine before age 36 months were at increased risk for autism. Decisions were made regarding which findings to report after the data were collected, and I believe that the final study protocol was not followed.
It wasn’t just this one paper, either: Other statements attributed to Dr. Thompson include:
“I have a boss who’s asking me to lie...Higher ups wanted to do certain things and I went along with it. In terms of command, I was 4 out of 5.”
“...the effect [autism] is where you would think it would happen. It is with the kids without other conditions [”isolated autism”]...I’m just looking at this and I’m like ‘Oh my God....I cannot believe we did what we did...but we did [bury the data on these children]...It’s all there...It’s all there. I have handwritten notes.’”
Lots of info on this here too: http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-1164794
“not the same thing as saying that you have an absolute right to harm your children.”
I never made that argument and quite frankly I did not see it made on this thread.
You were the one that made the claims that the beauracracy was being properly managed by those with the best interests at heart. I simply stated that your claim is impossible, given the amount of regulations being produced.
That impossibility is leading to some people questing the propaganda. That is what is happening and it is a very legitimate function of political discorse.
Some folks may choose to have some vaccines for their children, some may choose all vaccines and some may choose none. I am not saying which is right or wrong for any of them, but the discussion is certainly valid and healthy.
Your name calling and ridicule is akin to Alynski, yet you make assertions that are not even remote possibilities.
You didn't answer my question, and you're out of control, Fred. You're misrepresenting people's valid concerns, denying your own personal positions, repeatedly making monstrous accusations, demonstrating you're completely aware of the hypocrisy and hysteria of your own techniques, and in every way acting just as a paid shill would who was told to go trash vaccine threads by personally insulting people.
You have a filthy mouth and nothing else but your own bumper-sticker insults, Fred. That, and the delusion that your thug tactics are invisible.
FYI, your sacred herd theory, from which you froth over damning people as murderers, is just as scientific as global warming. You know nothing about the underlying statistics, including the fact that over 95% of people who catch a communicable disease in the US are already vaccinated against it, or the history of vaccine makers to claim success when the disease was already waning in the population (including your precious mother of all scare tactics - polio). Not to mention the enormous amount of poisonous material in each vaccine these days, as well as their use to overwhelm a newborn's immune system, and the heartbreaking stories that so many parents report from it - and which you deem acceptable risks.
In short, you're a sold-out, paid fraud working against the freedoms of your own country, Fred. You call parents with valid concerns for the safety of their children's lives murders? Then I call you a traitor to your country.
Shut up, Fred, you brainless moron, and GTFO - you’re a liar:
I had chickenpox when I was two years old. I've had nerve damage all my life because of it, including two shingles outbreaks. Had the vaccination existed in the 1950's my mother would not have ever exposed me to the pain I've known as a result because of the rabid beliefs of some ridiculous anti-science cult.
152 posted on February 4, 2015 12:27:16 PM PST by FredZarguna
Shut up, Fred, you brainless moron, and GTFO - you’re a liar:
When my oldest son received his first polio immunization, my mother was dying from cancer. We opted for the killed strain version, for that series, which is always available; you just have to ask for it.
167 posted on February 4, 2015 12:34:33 PM PST by FredZarguna
Shut up, Fred, you brainless moron, and GTFO - you’re a liar:
Two people in my mother's family died from polio. My Dad's mother was paralyzed by it. None of them ever left Southeastern Pennsylvania until my Dad went to war. People over a certain age know the ravages caused by these diseases, and too many younger people feel that the immunizations aren't necessary because they've lived during a danger-free period.
217 posted on February 4, 2015 1:23:27 PM PST by FredZarguna
You got a serious reading comprehension problem FRiend. There is nothing in any of those posts that suggests I want the least bit of sympathy from you. NOTHING. I was relating life experiences, and that’s all. There was no solicitation. Don’t want your pity, don’t want your prayers, but I will pray for you ... that you reach the fifth grade level in your primer someday real soon.
Their concerns are not valid. There are no studies that support the links that antivaxxers claim exist. Nearly every "study" cited by antivaxxers has been either a) badly conducted, b) poorly reasoned, c) mathematically invalid or d) a hoax. denying your own personal positions,
You've already been demolished on that point. Learn to read.
repeatedly making monstrous accusations,
You're right: claiming that you have an absolute right to do whatever you want with your children is monstrous. It's EXACTLY what abortionists claim. It is Monstrous. No doubt about it. And it isn't liberty; it's libertinism.
demonstrating you're completely aware of the hypocrisy and hysteria of your own techniques,
Since you can't read, and your own supposed "proof" of my hypocrisy falls on its face on the basis of that, consider yourself refuted.
and in every way acting just as a paid shill would who was told to go trash vaccine threads by personally insulting people.
I trash the antivaxxers because they're a menace to public health and to their children. Not paid by anybody. Just have a few science degrees and don't care to be living alongside Neanderthals who literally wallow in their own filth and try to persuade other people to do the same.
You have a filthy mouth and nothing else but your own bumper-sticker insults,
Point me to where I said something filthy. You've inferred what the 'F' in GTFO means. That's your filthy mind filling in the blanks. For all you know, that F was a euphemism in my post. But I do MEAN what I posted in no uncertain terms: Get with be a civilized being who understands the meaning of living in a society, or GET OUT.
Fred. That, and the delusion that your thug tactics are invisible.
Pointing out that antivaxxers are cave people who haven't the slightest idea of what "liberty" means isn't a "thug tactic," it's simply the truth.
FYI, your sacred herd theory, from which you froth over damning people as murderers, is just as scientific as global warming.
Herd Immunity isn't my theory. And, unlike global warming, it's quite real.
You know nothing about the underlying statistics, including the fact that over 95% of people who catch a communicable disease in the US are already vaccinated against it,
This is a claim in search of a conclusion. It has none, because it's an ancient fallacy of hypothetical syllogism that even the Greeks recognized was nonsensical -- called the fallacy of denying the premise. The fact that vaccines aren't 100% effective doesn't mean they aren't protecting the overwhelming majority of people who get them.
or the history of vaccine makers to claim success when the disease was already waning in the population (including your precious mother of all scare tactics - polio).
A classic antivaxxer lie. There is no evidence that polio was on the wane when the vaccine was invented. None. The nature of communicable diseases is that their outbreaks are cyclical in nature. Antivaxxers like to point out the ebbs in their selective "statistical analyses" of communicable diseases, without ever acknowledging the high tides. [They feel especially vindicated when taking credit for exactly the results produced by the vaccines.]
Not to mention the enormous amount of poisonous material in each vaccine these days,
If you define one microgram or less to be an "enormous amount." But toxicologists don't, because they have a rule: dosage makes the poison. I can find "enormous amounts" of toxic material in the air you're breathing right now.
You'll be fine.
Because it isn't an "enormous amount" by the standards of any thinking being.
as well as their use to overwhelm a newborn's immune system, and the heartbreaking stories that so many parents report from it - and which you deem acceptable risks.
Compared to the risk of the disease, yes. As for the hyperventilating claim that these "overwhelm a newborn's immune system," more unscientific piffle.
In short, you're a sold-out, paid fraud
Nope. Not paid. Just sad to see that in addition to all the liberal morons in Marin County, Hollywood and Cape Cod [http://www.alternet.org/personal-health/wealthy-anti-vaxxers-are-driving-outbreaks-deadly-19th-century-diseases] the cancer of antivaxx has infected [some] conservatives. You'll only get immunity by learning some science, history, and statistics. You won't get those from book-pushing quacks or famous crotch models who parade their unfortunate kids on Oprah [or any other available microphone.]
working against the freedoms of your own country, Fred.
See an earlier post, where I point out to the antivaxxers that although the Founders didn't know about vaccines, they did know about quarantine -- mandatory quarantine -- and they approved it. Queue silly but highly germane meme-photo of Mandy Patinkin: "Liberty: That word does not mean what you think it means."
You call parents with valid concerns for the safety of their children's lives murders?
I call parents who claim that their God given liberty includes the right to harm their children EXACTLY the same as abortionists. It's EXACTLY the same rationale. "An emanation from the umbras and penumbras of the Bill of Rights recognizes my authority to do whatever I please with my children." Nope, it doesn't. Tell me, Talibansker, how do you feel about the rights of parents to genitally mutilate their daughters? Or do you only stand up for the rights parents to expose their kids to disease?
Then I call you a traitor to your country.
Thank God you said that! Up until I reached that sentence I thought your post was serious, and that you were terribly cross with me.
Now I understand the whole thing was a joke. Good punking, there Talibansker. I knew no FReeper could make such hilarious [putative] "arguments."
We can end the conversation on a point that we agree on.
That stops being a problem once kids get chickenpox vaccines, and people like me die off. Personally, if the risk of that is to me and my generation, I'm fine with it. I actually do want to leave behind a better, healthier world.
And what is not said in this paper, but is true of EVERY infectious disease, is that the more people who are infected by the wild strain of a disease, the more likely it becomes that that particular virus will mutate into something new. That's right: antivaxxers are potential breeding grounds. If putting an end to chickenpox -- as we eradicated smallpox -- costs us a few geezers like me, I'm willing to accept the risk. And unlike the children of antivaxxers, I'm sufficiently aware of the dangers to make up my mind for myself.
Objectively, you've conflated "choosing not to vaccinate" with child abuse, which is aught more than statist propaganda.
Anyone who disagrees with your smug dogma is, apparently, an "idiot" or a "moron".
Let me be clear: I'm completely convinced that vaccinations are a net benefit to society.
But I'm equally convinced that people should be FREE to make such decisions for themselves and their children, and not forced to do so by the state.
Making a choice other than the one you so vehemently advocate does not make anybody a moron, idiot, or anarchist.
I'm sure you're a well-meaning individual whose heart is in the right place. It's just too bad that your sentiments are accompanied by such shameful and inexcusable abuse.
Try some civility next time.
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