Posted on 02/01/2015 10:17:45 AM PST by ckilmer
American liberty has always been held up by two pillars. Limited government and unlimited resources.
What happened in the 1970's was that the USA moved toward a future based on limited resources. (That has naturally pushed the USA in the direction of unlimited government because of the need for the government to adjudicate over relatively scarcer resources.)
In order to facilitate the republican vision of limited government its important that pubbies also push for a future of unlimited resources.
Toward this end the republican party needs to have a technological vision Greater than Reagan's Star Wars for foreign policy which helped end the cold war and greater than the democrats current clean energy program which right now is at grid parity in the US southwest.
A pubbie vision of unlimited resources fits the bill.
The pubbie unlimited resources vision should be as simple and straight forward as it is profound in its impact of pushing the USA back to a future based on unlimited resources.
This is it.
Kill the cost of energy.
Kill the cost of desalinated water.
Reduce the cost of electricity production to 1/10 the cost of current cheapest coal produced electricity. That's what will yield the true 21st century economy and come closest to fulfilling the greatest generation's 1950's and 60's dream of too cheap to meter electricity. This is the first part of what will move the USA back in the direction unlimited resources. This transformation will be as profound as coal and steam engines were to the 19th century and the gasoline powered internal combustion engine and the electrically powered motors were to the 20th century.
The second part of the vision to push America back to a future of unlimited resources --requires that we kill the cost of desalinated water so that desalinated water is cheap enough for agriculture in southern California, the desert southwest and the inter mountain west. This will produce the sort of agricultural revolution that will feed the 21st century and beyond. And do for places like the southwest in the 21st century what the iconic hoover dam did in the 20th century.
Cheap energy and water are what produce a future of unlimited resources.
Put the vision of unlimited resources before America and the vision of limited government will make perfect sense to EVERYBODY. (Because a rising tide raises all ships.)
As it happens all the pieces are in place to accomplish this great task. It will happen anyway. All the pubbies need to do is do is organize the culture around this goal (like the dems do around clean energy) and then claim the credit for it.
I bet you think nuclear fusion is just around the corner as well.
Look when there’s a solution then we’ll talk. Until then it’s just talk.
But there are other solutions to fresh water supply that do not involve high energy desalination tech. Those solutions are much more promising and in work ***now*** not tomorrow.
We’re in total agreement. Just adding that the oinking might have use too.
Most of the cost of desalination is for the energy, so if we get cheap energy, we will have cheap desalination.
Most of the cost of desalination is for the energy, so if we get cheap energy, we will have cheap desalination.
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People in the field will tell you that 1/3 of the cost of desalination is the cost of energy.
1/3 is capital costs or the cost of building the desal plant amortized over 30 years or so.
1/3 of the cost of desalination is maintenance.
I bet you think nuclear fusion is just around the corner as well.
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Currently nuclear fusion is 20 years off as it has been for the last 50 years.
Doesn’t sound like you have been following the thorium reactor research. Google lftr msr thorium reactors. I’m not going to do your work for you. Laboratories and high tech companies in the USA and China are gearing up for a high stakes very public battle in a couple years. Demos of these reactors are expected from a couple sources in the next five years. The reason everyone is so confident in this line of R&D is that these reactors were actually done in the late 1960’s. They were dumped because they were not dual use. At the time the USA wanted reactors that could be used for both peaceful purposes to make electricity —as well as to create material for nuclear bombs. That’s what the Iranians want to do now.
lftr msr thorium reactors can’t be used to make nuclear bombs but they can make very cheap electricity.
I’m a big fan of reclaimed water but that’s ths sort of work that will buy a decade or three of water for municipal purposes but is not a true 21st century solution.
You sound like a middle eastern guy. I can tell you the last Saudi that I talked with told me that the royals have promised a day to their people when the deserts of saudi arabia will be turned green. Arabs are not good researchers but the gulf arabs want to be respectable players in desalination research. They’re not focused on either reducing the cost of energy for obvious reasons— or the cost of maintenance which each represent 1/3 of the cost of desalination. They’re mostly focused on funding membrane research around the world which if successful will significantly reduce capital, maintenance and energy costs.
So far the most interesting membrane lab work I’ve seen however have come from American labs—most of it with primarily american funding.
This article will show you where the saudi R&D is at.
http://www.arabnews.com/saudi-arabia/news/697351
Both Israel and Singapore have claimed to have produced desalinated water for $500@acre foot. But since their governments are so deeply involved in their water projects its hard to know what the real price points are.
For their part the Israelis use their desalinated water for their cities and then clean it up sufficiently for agricultural purposes.
They have closed the loop in the last couple years on both energy and water security and therefor food security.
Its sad that California seems unable to learn from Israel on this matter.
> “Doesn’t sound like you have been following the thorium reactor research.”
I met and was selected directly by Admiral Rickover for his Navy Nuclear Power program. I know a great deal more than you would ever expect.
But you revealed you are all over the map. The words ‘distracted’ and ‘delusional’ can be added to ‘naive’, ‘inexperienced’ and ‘sophomoric’ as descriptors to your postings.
> “Both Israel and Singapore have claimed to have produced desalinated water for $500@acre foot.”
Those claims are bogus and ignore what was pointed out to you earlier in the thread and that is the resultant concentrated brine is an environmental disaster to seabeds and sea life.
As for the Israelis and their decision to forge ahead with harming the sea, they are knowingly in violation of the Barcelona Treaty of which they are a signor and which addresses a real and substantial threat to Mediterranean sea posed by desalination. Mediterranean islands like Malta which are desperate for water acknowledge the threat and abstain from pursuing desalination. And the Maltese are not environmental kooks but rather appreciate the clear evidence of the dangers of concentrated brine.
http://www.ibtimes.com/water-sea-risks-and-rewards-israels-huge-bet-desalination-723429
“Fifty percent of the seawater ends up as drinking water and the other fifty goes back into the sea as a concentrated brine.”
“But where does the salt go?”
“Initially, when it is harvested from the sea, the water is about 4 percent salt, and when the concentrate is returned it contains about 7.5 percent salt, roughly double the average salinity of the world’s oceans. On top of that, environmentalists have raised concerns about a large red plume in the sea caused by the high iron content of the concentrate sent back into the Mediterranean.”
“Israel is a member of the Barcelona Convention, a landmark treaty between 22 countries to assess and control marine pollution.”
As for your posting that you ‘won’t do my work for me’, GOOD! Don’t do any work for me or for anyone else! Your work product does not meet any standard of research evaluation.
You remind me of what Jesus said of the Pharsees of his day—”
Matthew 23:24”You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.”
I looked at the ibtimes article you posted said about salt brine disposal. Looks like the Israelis brine waste disposal is about on par with the Saudis. As I mentioned the true solution to the problem is to turn the brine waste into a profit center. Anyhow, here is the quote that has you ventilated.http://www.ibtimes.com/water-sea-risks-and-rewards-israels-huge-bet-desalination-723429
But where does the salt go?
Initially, when it is harvested from the sea, the water is about 4 percent salt, and when the concentrate is returned it contains about 7.5 percent salt, roughly double the average salinity of the world’s oceans. On top of that, environmentalists have raised concerns about a large red plume in the sea caused by the high iron content of the concentrate sent back into the Mediterranean.
Israel is a member of the Barcelona Convention, a landmark treaty between 22 countries to assess and control marine pollution. Tenne says his agency is monitoring the water, the seabed and biological population near the plant, and new, more stringent regulations have put greater controls on how the concentrate is sent back to sea. Overall, the industry is placing a growing emphasis on reducing the amount of chemicals in the process, finding better ways to remove water from the sea and how to return the salt concentrate back to the sea without killing marine life, according to Tom Pankratz, a Houston-based independent consultant and editor of Global Water Intelligence’s weekly Water Desalination Report.
Israel’s Minister of the Environment, Erdan, says the country’s water needs are too important to give up desalination because of environmental concerns. We have to make sure the quality of the brine fits the demands of the international community. The dilemma is whether to give it up, and then you don’t have water, or try to improve the desalination technologies. The new Sorek plant will feature water intakes and exhausts that will be less damaging to the environment.
I met and was selected directly by Admiral Rickover for his Navy Nuclear Power program. I know a great deal more than you would ever expect.
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Why do you constantly provoke a pissing match—with stuff that sounds like a lie. Do you know how long ago it was that Admiral Rickover was in charge of the nuclear submarine program?
Do you know that the same guy Alvin Weinberg who invented the light water reactor—also invented the lftr msr thorium reactor. Weinberg said himself that the lftr msr thorium reactor was a much better reactor. The light water reactors currently power nuclear submarines. Its a technology that hasn’t changed much in 60 years.
> “Both Israel and Singapore have claimed to have produced desalinated water for $500@acre foot.”
Those claims are bogus
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Since you are the weak horse, you’re going to have to work a bit more to prove your point. Its not enough just to pee and pout.
> “Both Israel and Singapore have claimed to have produced desalinated water for $500@acre foot.”
Those claims are bogus
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Since you are the weak horse, you’re going to have to work a bit more to prove your point. Its not enough just to pee and pout.
Once again you are off subject. Weinberg has nothing to do with this thread, hence why you are appropriately described as ‘distracted’.
The facts are all there in the post. You’re ignoring them.
Once again you are off subject. Weinberg has nothing to do with this thread, hence why you are appropriately described as ‘distracted’.
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The arab debate form is weak.
Weinberg created the thorium reactor designs which both the Chinese and US companies are working off of.
The facts are all there in the post. You’re ignoring them.
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So are you in favor of killing the saudi desalination industry because their salt brine disposal methods are not up to spec?
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