Not a chokehold: Truth of the Garner arrest

NY Post ^ | 8/14/2014 | Bo Dietl

[SpirituTuo]

I’m not the smartest man in the room, but unlike you, I don’t pretend to be. Have a great evening.

[Texas Songwriter]

Well, I can't see the video in isolation and fail to consider what 9 previous arrests must have generate in terms of this man's past medical conditions. But , just from the video I see a very large man (with accompanying medical liabilities often associated with morbid obesity). I see severe grown men pressing on his anterior abdominal wall as well as his chest. I see very little resistance from the arrestee. I see the forearm of the officer pressing in on the anterior neck, fair deeply sunk in. I see and hear a terrified person on the ground begin to be let up because he cannot breath.

The lack of consideration may have been born from ignorance of the officers with reference to his concurrent medical conditions which I tried to enumerate in my previous post. I don't expect them to have the clinical acumen of a physician, but they are not at all tune into the complaint that the man said he could not breath. That is dangerous in any setting.

I don't know if that answers your question. I hope it does.

[Tired of Taxes]

I can’t help but compare Eric Garner’s case to what happened to a man in my neighborhood.

The DIFFERENCE is that the man in my neighborhood had done absolutely nothing wrong. He had no criminal record. He was a patient at a mental health clinic, but no one called to complain about him. An officer happened to be walking by, accused him of “loitering” (although the man was a regular customer at this store, and all he was doing was drinking a soda and smoking a cigarette), decided to question him, and then offered him a ride, which the man refused. A whole group of officers and civilians decided to “help” in the “arrest,” and as they were putting the man into the patrol car, they noticed he wasn’t moving.

THAT man was found to have died from asphyxiation, and the arrest was deemed UNLAWFUL. The officer pleaded guilty and agreed to turn in his badge, and that was it. It was a very sad case. Yet, there was no public outrage, with the exception of a small group of peaceful protesters and some flowers left in front of the store where he died. Here’s the story:

http://www.nj.com/camden/index.ssf/2010/10/winslow_officer_to_forfeit_job.html

Now compare that story to Mr. Garner’s case. Sad as the case is, it’s not as clear-cut. Mr. Garner had been breaking laws repeatedly. According to some websites, he was out on bail at the time of that last arrest. The people running local businesses called the police on him. So, the arrest was lawful, and he didn’t die when the police were arresting him - he died later in the ambulance.

Again, it’s very sad, but whether to indict the officer must’ve been a tough call to make.

[Texas Songwriter]

Yet, he stood on the sidewalk and seemingly was conversing with people. Then he was taken down and died on the side of the street. So perhaps we are missing some things not enumerated in your litany.

I think maybe having a long conversation with him may have resulted in compliance, but that is a guess. When 5 men surround you it is, by definition, confrontational, and that is what I felt Mr. Garner thought. Yes, he resisted arrest. Once the takedown (assault) was terminated, I believe the hypoxia of the myocardium had done irreversible damange and an acute MI was developing (that would not show up at post). Had this been J.J. Watt his cardiopulmonary reserve would have not had any trouble physiologically tolerating the stresses which Mr.Garner endured. As I said, I suspect he was normally operating on a minimal margin of a O2 saturation of 91-92%. This means any significant stress, adrenergic, physiological, physical, infectious, could have been more than he could have tolerated (just an opinion). But there seems to be the need for reasonableness to determine probably what caused death 11 minutes after the confrontation began.

Sitting on top of him.........well I saw a number of men who were intermittently on his abdomen/chest area. The officer with his forearm beneath chin also restricted airflow.

[Half Vast Conspiracy]

If you can’t handle people disagreeing with you, FR isn’t the place to troll.

[LoneRangerMassachusetts]

Garner said HE COULDN’T BREATH. That is what happens when you are being choked.

In order to speak, one needs to pass air through their wind pipe. If he is speaking, air is moving through his wind pipe. Therefore, it's not a choke hold. It is a headlock.

[SpirituTuo]

He did not die on the street. He was breathing unassisted, and talking, and expired in the ambulance.

As my LEO friend was explaining, he was non-compliant. Since some people are allergic to pepper spray, and to avoid Anaphylaxis, it wasn’t used (in this case). People with underlying heart conditions can suffer death when hit with a taser. The least amount of force available to effect the arrest was to physicaly bring the subject to the ground, as quickly as possible.

Mr. Garner chose to respond in a confrontational manner. He could have remained calm (as much as possible, as he was on parole), taken a ride downtown, and then bailed out. However, he chose be confrontational and resist.

When one views both videos of the incident, the amount of time someone is on his chest is limited, a matter of seconds. Given a non-compliant subject, of his height and weight, sitting on him is the least amount of force used. When it became clear he was in distress, EMS was immediately called (arrived within 3 min) and nobody sat on him anymore. The only contact was an officer putting his hand on Mr. Garner’s shoulder.

As you mentioned previously, the police officers lack the acumen of a physician. Rather, they rely upon training, procedures, and judgement. It is a dangerous world out there. A police officer doesn’t know exactly what he is up against, until he is up against it. Speed is of the essence in dealing with non-compliant individuals. Once restrained, the chance of injury to either police or subject is greatly reduced.

As you likely have witnessed sudden death from MI, as well prolonged death from CHF and COPD, these officers likely haven’t. It is unreasonable to assume they would have that level of knowledge. Instead, they have to work within the bounds of reasonable people and judgement. As someone else stated, Mr. Garner appeared like some NFL players appear. To the untrained eye, Mr. Garner would appear to be a large, strong, and possibly dangerous man.

[SpirituTuo]

I believe in civil discussion and disagreement. Does your tagline indicate the same?

[bramps]

You have to make up your mind about something. Earlier you made a big point out of the fact that the officers arm was off him in under 3 seconds. Why did you write that? If he wasn't choked who cares how long it was there?

Point being, you give me 1 or 2 seconds to wrap my arm around another man's neck and tighten as hard as I can (as it appears the officer did in the first vid), I could do some lasting damage and death would definitely would not be out of the question. Even if it wasn't instantaneous.

I watch those videos knowing what he was being arrested for and think the whole thing stinks and was a disgrace. I initially thought all the involved cops should be charged. And nothing I've read here has changed that.

[FreeReign]

I think maybe having a long conversation with him may have resulted in compliance, but that is a guess. When 5 men surround you it is, by definition, confrontational, and that is what I felt Mr. Garner thought.

Garner resisted arrest when there were only two police confronting him, not five. Garner said that "this(being arrested) ends today", and then he started waving his hands when the the one smaller cop tried to cuff him. It was at that point that the black female Sargent who was in charge and two additional officers approached.

[tophat9000]

None.. because none apparently had a heart condition..

luck for me..

because the male roommate turn out to be a crackhead when we clean out his room.

Do you content in this case Garner was choked to death.. and his health had no bearing in the matter?

Because I want to establish something... if you get in a confrontation with someone and that someone dies... your guilt of murder?.

By that logic.. why stop at physical?...an argument with somebody can induce enough stress to raise someones blood pressure to a point could trigger a heart attack or stroke

But that why I asked the question..and asking men to be honest

How many men here at some point in their life have gotten in a confrontation with a belligerent or drunk person and had to apply a similar level of force as this cop on Garner?

... I'm not saying had the same result.. (they later died)..

Im saying had to apply similar level of force on a belligerent person at some point to control them...

I have ...

[caww]

No matter “why” the police were arresting the guy...he taunted and resisted them.....and every person knows not to do that except for those who have no respect for authority. Obvious this guy didn’t....and usually those with a rap sheet like his don’t....that’s how they get a rap sheet to begin with...they break the law and resist arrest.

[dfwgator]

Or to put it another way, “Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.”

[caww]

Yes,...that's usually how it goes.

Unfortunately we now live in a society where the general public cannot discern between rights and privileges....everything has become about peoples “rights”. Which I for one am sick of hearing people claim.

[iowamark]

Dietl is correct, but people are not interested in facts or evidence today.

[firebrand]

Thanks. The Times conveniently did not give those facts. Someone should write a letter to the editor. Where did you read or hear that?

[Birdsbane]

You can get the same reaction out of almost any Nazi or mental cop by just having a cell phone out when they are having some strong-armed fun. Woe unto anyone who dares defy them, deny them their kicks and jollies, or threaten them with just the smallest potential of public exposure. Yeah, call a cop. They are your friends...

[Kozak]

Uh no. If someone has you in choke hold you can’t say ANYTHING.
what Garner had was “ air hunger” a sensation of lack of air. The fact that he was speaking clearly proves his airway was not obstructed. With his morbid obesity, hypertension and asthma laying him prone would be enough to have him feel like he couldn’t breathe.

[Birdsbane]

Smokers already bear the “cost”. It’s called over taxation to pay for your schools, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. Smoking only became the health threat it is today because the government did NOTHING to stop the genetic and artificial chemical alteration of tobacco as we know it today in the early 1900’s. Prior to that, tobacco’s “threat” was negligible. Few people know the true history of tobacco and those who profit by it; like you, your government, and big tobacco. The blame lies with everyone involved, not solely on the evil smokers, who are largely the victims of society’s greed.