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To: SpirituTuo
Yet, he stood on the sidewalk and seemingly was conversing with people. Then he was taken down and died on the side of the street. So perhaps we are missing some things not enumerated in your litany.

I think maybe having a long conversation with him may have resulted in compliance, but that is a guess. When 5 men surround you it is, by definition, confrontational, and that is what I felt Mr. Garner thought. Yes, he resisted arrest. Once the takedown (assault) was terminated, I believe the hypoxia of the myocardium had done irreversible damange and an acute MI was developing (that would not show up at post). Had this been J.J. Watt his cardiopulmonary reserve would have not had any trouble physiologically tolerating the stresses which Mr.Garner endured. As I said, I suspect he was normally operating on a minimal margin of a O2 saturation of 91-92%. This means any significant stress, adrenergic, physiological, physical, infectious, could have been more than he could have tolerated (just an opinion). But there seems to be the need for reasonableness to determine probably what caused death 11 minutes after the confrontation began.

Sitting on top of him.........well I saw a number of men who were intermittently on his abdomen/chest area. The officer with his forearm beneath chin also restricted airflow.

145 posted on 12/06/2014 6:56:14 PM PST by Texas Songwriter ( Iwe)
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To: Texas Songwriter

He did not die on the street. He was breathing unassisted, and talking, and expired in the ambulance.

As my LEO friend was explaining, he was non-compliant. Since some people are allergic to pepper spray, and to avoid Anaphylaxis, it wasn’t used (in this case). People with underlying heart conditions can suffer death when hit with a taser. The least amount of force available to effect the arrest was to physicaly bring the subject to the ground, as quickly as possible.

Mr. Garner chose to respond in a confrontational manner. He could have remained calm (as much as possible, as he was on parole), taken a ride downtown, and then bailed out. However, he chose be confrontational and resist.

When one views both videos of the incident, the amount of time someone is on his chest is limited, a matter of seconds. Given a non-compliant subject, of his height and weight, sitting on him is the least amount of force used. When it became clear he was in distress, EMS was immediately called (arrived within 3 min) and nobody sat on him anymore. The only contact was an officer putting his hand on Mr. Garner’s shoulder.

As you mentioned previously, the police officers lack the acumen of a physician. Rather, they rely upon training, procedures, and judgement. It is a dangerous world out there. A police officer doesn’t know exactly what he is up against, until he is up against it. Speed is of the essence in dealing with non-compliant individuals. Once restrained, the chance of injury to either police or subject is greatly reduced.

As you likely have witnessed sudden death from MI, as well prolonged death from CHF and COPD, these officers likely haven’t. It is unreasonable to assume they would have that level of knowledge. Instead, they have to work within the bounds of reasonable people and judgement. As someone else stated, Mr. Garner appeared like some NFL players appear. To the untrained eye, Mr. Garner would appear to be a large, strong, and possibly dangerous man.


148 posted on 12/06/2014 7:32:27 PM PST by SpirituTuo
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To: Texas Songwriter
I think maybe having a long conversation with him may have resulted in compliance, but that is a guess. When 5 men surround you it is, by definition, confrontational, and that is what I felt Mr. Garner thought.

Garner resisted arrest when there were only two police confronting him, not five. Garner said that "this(being arrested) ends today", and then he started waving his hands when the the one smaller cop tried to cuff him. It was at that point that the black female Sargent who was in charge and two additional officers approached.

151 posted on 12/06/2014 8:09:32 PM PST by FreeReign
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