[ConservingFreedom]

it's crimnalization of vice that's utopian, as it leaves vice intact while enriching criminals and putting vice outside the realm of effective regulation.

running in circles on the logic there

I don't think you know what 'circular logic' means - but here's your opportunity to leave egg on my face by showing how my logic is circular.

[GeronL]

Recognizing that people and society is not perfect and not perfectible is the antithesis of Utopian. Desiring laws that are necessary to curb dangerous things is not Utopian by definition.