[DoughtyOne]

I have given consideration to sex outside of marriage, and I'm not a big fan of it. It does happen. If it happens with the person the second party has made a committment with and later marries, I'm not convinced God views the person to be worthy of enternal damnation for the commission.

Not only do I not have to agree with you; God doesn't have to agree with your self-centered opinion, either. And God, not I, is who has already judged and condemned anyone who does this; who condemns this faulty judgment in his word.

Okay, so you're still going to go with the put-down approach rather than discuss this like adults.  That's a good Christian.

A single man and a single woman are shipwrecked on an island for five years.  They become close friends over the months.  They realize they have more than their accidental situation in common.  They realize they care for each other and make committments they believe in to each other.  They promise to remain a couple after they are found.  They agree to settle down in a certain city.  They talk about having children.  They agree they want to have normal adult sexual relations.

Going by what you have been sticking to up until now, you beleive they are both guilty of sin if they have sex.  I don't.  They have made a committment, and in the eyes of God I think they are covered.  If you wish to hold out for the death penalty for this, I won't be joining you..

Mark 10: 11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. 12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

This isn't related to what we're talking about, so I'm not sure why you felt the need to include it.  I agree with it.  I think divorce is wrong.  I think adults should work together to overcome differences, and remain together.

I will say that if a man is being physical with his wife, and she has tried to work with him, she has every right to escape him rather than be abused.

By the same token, if a man should catch his wife sleeping around with other men, he tries to get her to stop and she won't, he should be able to leave her.

Matthew 5: 32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Yes, once again this has nothing to do with pre-marital sex.  These are both post marital matters.  And now that you have included it, you have posted a conflict.  Look at the definitive text you provided above this one.  Now look at this one.  One leave no loopholes and the other does.  Which one do we follow?.

Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

So that guy on the island committed a sin.  And that woman on the island also committed a sin.  Look, life doesn't always work out like we want.  I don't think a loving God is going to look down and condemn us for being human, if we are trying to live a good life.  If your view of God is that he will entrap us and hold us accountable, we're not worshiping the same God.  My God is a loving God that feels compassion and understands the short time we are on this earth, and does not want us to live in misery.  That God would want the man and the woman to comfort each other on that island.

I view this as an admonission against looking at women in genral and thinking inappropriate thoughts.  I do not view a man who is engaged to be married, to be committing adultry if he looks upon his fiance and desires her.  Every man would be guilty and die in the final judgement if that were true.

1 Corinthians 6 9 ¶ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

It is my perception that if a man and a woman have dated for a significant time, they have made committments to each other, and they intend to follow through, they are niether fornicators or adulterers if they have pre-marital sex.

Do I think they should live together before marriage?  No.  I would not suggest men or women should avoid being married or putting it off.  If they feel they want to get married, they should do it.  If they can't get up the money for a big wedding, then go to the justice of the peace and do it that way.  I don't think men and women should be carrying on for years just putting it off.  I believe that would be wrong.

"If it happens": As though that's an unavoidable accident that a man just can't be held responsible for.

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

People also error by assumig they grasp God fully and need to explain Him to everyone else.  I have witnessed more church-going sinners drive other sinners away from God than you could imagine.

Do you believe the effiminate won't make it into heaven?  That's the general message literalists will come away with after reading 1 Corintians 6:9 above.  My take on it is that if a person is not born manly, but tries to live a decent life adhering to God's dictates, he will be judged to have been a good and faithful servant.

That's not what it says in the text.  You see, we dont fully understand God.  I believe He does fully understand us.  It's what is in my heart that He cares about.

[mbj]

You demonstrate again (and continually!) your ignorance of God’s will and word. You say “I don’t urge you to respect me.” - well, OK. Then don’t be surprised then when I take you at your word, for I have little regard for anyone who undercuts morality and truth.

You argue “I don’t think”, “I view”, “I think”, “I”.... without regard for what your Creator thinks and has said, and what his son has clearly said.

Regarding your concocted and contrived shipwrecked couple, if they are unmarried, hasn’t God already established the covenant of marriage covenant?

Matthew 19:8
3 ¶ The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

What was the pattern in the very beginning, Adam and Eve? Verse 5, a man shall leave his father and his mother and cleave to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh - in the covenant of marriage. Yes, of course in the sight of God they could first make a covenant according to knowledge and be joined together by his covenant of marriage – before coming together in the flesh. Neither an holy oath nor a covenant of marriage made before God (and with each other) requires a white washed building. But as for your contrived example – I have yet to see it or even hear of such a real life situation!

The sin you hope to justify, is that somehow such a marriage above as *I* described it, is not really marriage in the eyes of God and that therefore fornication is somehow alright. Fornication is never justified, in God’s eyes.

Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

“So that guy on the island committed a sin.  And that woman on the island also committed a sin.”

So, in your words, since you postulate this phony fairy tale, the couple *is* guilty of sin and in spite of the “realize they care for each other and make committments they believe in to each other” has *not* been joined together in holy matrimony: God is the one who joins together, and any holy covenant must be consistent with his laws.

You again err, not knowing the scriptures: temptation alone is clearly not lust as you will see below.

But why do you assert they *must* have sex rather than live without sex? You present false dichotomies to mislead, which is not unsurprising.

Hebrews 4
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

I have no intention of utterly wasting my breath on your ignorance concerning the supposed contradiction of the scriptures; not that I don’t *know* how to answer you – I do know. But how might one explain, for example, advanced physics to someone who not only doesn’t even know basic algebra but furthermore has *no interest* in truth but rather in deception?!

You speak of love, but you have no respect for the scriptures.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures! Do not say on the great day that you were ignorant: I’ve tried to help you and show you a portion of your error. And I’ve written truth for anyone who stumbles on this thread with a sincere heart.

“You see, we dont [SIC] fully understand God.”

What a craven, cowardly excuse for sin. Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, neither the power of God.

Speak for yourself, who knows not God, by your own admission.

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that *know not God*, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

James 1
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

If you ever decide to truly seek truth with a sincere heart, (not that I’ve seen any evidence of that so far), then repent, go and humbly study God’s word: seek as for hid treasure (not slothfully) and you will find.