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To: wagglebee
"I certainly believe that God does know the hour of our death and He has known it from the moment of Creation and that means that He has always known that millions would be murdered in the womb. He doesn't condone it, but because He gave man free will He allows it. I don't believe the Catholic and Reformed beliefs differ on this."

You have brought up several interesting points. The first, the recognition of God's omniscience, is well-described throughout the Scriptures. You acknowledge that, as do I.

The second point you make, that God does not "condone it, but because He gave man free will He allows it." is worth exploring. Part of this statement is indeed biblical, part of it is not. God certainly does not "condone" our evil at any level. But, with respect to "free will", we may be a ways apart. The classic Reformed position, and I believe the Catholic position, are fairly close on this. They both align with Augustine against Pelagian, but operate in a sort of semi-Pelagian view. That is, in reality, they both hold that there is, in fact, free will. I have for some time puzzled how this position can be sustained, but you are right that the Catholic and Reformed (capital R) views agree.

However, I would make it clear here, apparently I do not hold a Reformed position on this matter. My (r)eformed position is that there is no such thing as "free will". I cannot find it in the Scriptures, but rather find the exact opposite. Proverbs 21:1 has Solomon saying that God controls his heart like a little "channel of water", turning it wherever He wishes. Dozens of other passages have God "putting" this or that into the heart of men/women to do certain things. Even the roll of a die is controlled by God, so evidently "randomness" is an illusion.

All of this operates to convince me that the Scriptures (certainly not human logic, philosophy, nor modern thought) teaches God is managing every detail of every being at every moment. The remarks, such as, "Adam, where are you?" are for the effect on us humans. God always knows all, because He is managing all.

Likely this will cause the rebuttal, "Well, you are saying that God is responsible for sin then." If one would mean, therefore He is going to hold Himself guilty, this is nonsense. But, did He originate sin? Absolutely. Creation Ex Nihilo implies there was nothing before God, so (John 1:1ff) all things have been made by Him and for Him. All things. Even Satan.

And, recall, Luke tells us in Acts 2:23ff that the most despicable sin of all, the execution of the Prince of Holiness, the Lord of All, the Messiah of Israel was arranged by the "...predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God" Who used men to nail Him to the cross. Was the guilt ours? Absolutely. Was the management His? Absolutely. As Paul writes in Rom. 9, I may think this is unfair...but that is not for me to determine. The Potter can do anything He wishes with His clay.

I certainly agree with you that Satan was used to energize the reprehensible abortionists who murder babies in (and now out) of the womb. They will suffer greatly for this, unless God grants them repentance (II Tim 2:24ff) and causes them to escape the "...snare of the devil..." But, even David the rapist and murderer was among God's elect, so I withhold judgment as to whether they are salvageable.

22 posted on 10/09/2014 9:55:28 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88
However, I would make it clear here, apparently I do not hold a Reformed position on this matter. My (r)eformed position is that there is no such thing as "free will". I cannot find it in the Scriptures, but rather find the exact opposite. Proverbs 21:1 has Solomon saying that God controls his heart like a little "channel of water", turning it wherever He wishes. Dozens of other passages have God "putting" this or that into the heart of men/women to do certain things. Even the roll of a die is controlled by God, so evidently "randomness" is an illusion.

Even if you do take this position, the net result is the same in that the ongoing slaughter of innocent babies continues with the foreknowledge of God.

I certainly agree with you that Satan was used to energize the reprehensible abortionists who murder babies in (and now out) of the womb. They will suffer greatly for this, unless God grants them repentance (II Tim 2:24ff) and causes them to escape the "...snare of the devil..." But, even David the rapist and murderer was among God's elect, so I withhold judgment as to whether they are salvageable.

Certainly some of the abortionists will repent and some have already, but I also believe that a great many of them carry out their carnage with the full understanding that they are doing it for Satan.

23 posted on 10/09/2014 10:18:09 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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